Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Kishkumen
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:38 pm
That of course is all interesting and important. But the validity of the Book of Abraham published by the Church today as a genuine and historical record is what counts in this thread and that is what concerns me. All I want are the facts whereby a correct judgement can be made. If the Church will disavow the book as historical and genuine then nothing more need be said.

I think u get that.
In my opinion, the interesting problem here is that you have a church run by historical ignoramuses who believe that their spiritual authority trumps the facts of history as regards an accurate accounting of the past. Maybe individually they don't all see things that way, but that is certainly the position they implicitly and explicitly hold as a group. I would hope that they could find a way to move past this untenable position. The earth is not 6,000 years old, and Abraham is not a historical person. The account of Egypt in the scriptures is not history. Egypt had a much more interesting symbolic significance in the scriptures, and I think that is its primary importance for Joseph Smith too.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:41 pm
Shulem wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:33 pm
I would prefer if you focus on the numbers because math is math and it either adds up or it does not.

I am counting the numbers, Kish.

2400 BC vs. 3000 BC

;)
Yeah, Hebrew mythology was also pegged to historical dates. That does not make it history.

The following biblical timeline I posted earlier devastates the Hebrew records and discredits Smith’s adoption to it as a correct historical record:

Shulem wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 7:06 pm

The Silver Bullet

:idea:

Let’s cut to the chase and focus strictly on the chronology established by the biblical account and see how it’s impossible for the Egyptian civilization to have been founded by Ham’s progeny. Let’s put all the chips on the table right now. Shall we? Mormon apologetics can’t justify the Book of Abraham’s false narrative unless they deny Egyptology & science and all the evidence that backs it. Smith embraced biblical chronology and adopted it into his own work:

1. Noah’s ark settles in a new land.
2. Shem begat Arphaxad 2 years after the flood.
3. Arphaxad age 35 begat Salah
4. Salah age 30 begat Eber
5. Eber age 34 begat Peleg
6. Peleg age 30 begat Reu
7. Reu age 32 begat Serug
8. Serug age 30 begat Nahor
9. Nahor age 29 begat Terah
10. Terah age 70 begat Abram
11. Abram age 75 begins his journey to Canaan (Book of Abraham says age 62)

This accounts for a total of 365 years and Abram is now in Egypt!

Apologists can’t argue that Joseph Smith did not confirm the above dates in his new translation of Genesis. He covered all that material and approved it. It’s part of the official records of the Church. It’s been confirmed by Smith’s new translation of the bible and is therefore canon.

Old Testament Revision 1, June 1830, Handwriting by Sidney Rigdon wrote: Joseph Smith Papers

and these were the genarations of Shem, Shem being
an Hundred years old begat Arphaxed two years
after the flood and Shem lived after he
begat Arphaxed five Hundred years and begat Sons
and Dughters and Arphaxed lived five and thrty
years and begat Salah and
Arphaxed lived after he begat Salah four Hundred
and three years and begat sons and daughtes And
Salah lived thirty years and begat Eber and Salah
lived after he begat Eber four Hundred and three
years and begat Sons and daughters And Eber lived
four and thirty years and begat Peleg and Eber lived
after he begat Peleg four Hundred and thirty years
and begat sons and daughters and Peleg lived thirty
years and begat Rheu and Peleg lived after he begat
Rheu two Hundred and nine years and begat sons
and daughters And Rheu ​lived​ two and thirty
years and begat Serug and Rheu lived after he begat
Serug two Hundred and seven years and begat sons
and daughters and Serug lived thirty years and
beget Nahor and Serug lived after he begat Nahor
two Hundred years and begat Sons and daugters
and Nahor lived nine and twenty years and begat
Terah and Nahor lived after he begat Terah a
Hundred nineteen years and begat sons and
daughters and Terah lived Seventy years and begat
Abram​ Nahor and Haran.

It’s simply not possible to use biblical chronology which Smith married into his own records and also endorse a 3000 BC unification of Egypt under king Menes. The Church has to make a choice in *which* date they want to stand by:

2400 BC vs. 3000 BC

Both can’t be true! But the Church continues to play both sides of the fence and this thread is pointing that out!

I find that to be disconcerting and dishonest. Do you?
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:47 pm
Shulem wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:38 pm
That of course is all interesting and important. But the validity of the Book of Abraham published by the Church today as a genuine and historical record is what counts in this thread and that is what concerns me. All I want are the facts whereby a correct judgement can be made. If the Church will disavow the book as historical and genuine then nothing more need be said.

I think u get that.
In my opinion, the interesting problem here is that you have a church run by historical ignoramuses who believe that their spiritual authority trumps the facts of history as regards an accurate accounting of the past. Maybe individually they don't all see things that way, but that is certainly the position they implicitly and explicitly hold as a group. I would hope that they could find a way to move past this untenable position. The earth is not 6,000 years old, and Abraham is not a historical person. The account of Egypt in the scriptures is not history. Egypt had a much more interesting symbolic significance in the scriptures, and I think that is its primary importance for Joseph Smith too.

I totally agree.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

Post by Moksha »

Analogy Bird wrote:
Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:13 pm
If Jules Verne's From the Earth to the Moon had been adopted as scripture by some religious tradition, its apologists would be stuck arguing the possibility of reaching the moon while being blasted out of a big cannon using gun cotton as the propellant. They would dismiss modern aeronautics as being too speculative. They would benefit from a Conestoga wagonload of Dr. Gees.
I get where you are coming from, with multiple Dr. Gees they could simultaneously work on a missing superlong barrel theory as well as parallels to laser pistols and disrupters. A squadron of Dr. Gees might even postulate that Verne had actually channeled a BFG-9000 as the means of achieving a lunar orbit.

Image

I bet the multiple Dr. Gees would all have Dr. Peterson as a pal and they would all receive postcards from Bora Bora and Lake Lucerne during Dr. Peterson's ambassadorial journeys for the restored Moon Cannon Church.
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Re: For the Record

Post by Shulem »

Links to Documents at Joseph Smith Papers:

Old Testament Revision 1, Photo Copy, Genesis
Old Testament Revision 1, Entire Document Transcript, Genesis


Additional information about the documents by Joseph Smith Papers:

Joseph Smith Papers, Source Note wrote:Old Testament Revision 1, June 1830–ca. 7 Mar. 1831; handwriting of Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdery, Emma Smith, and John Whitmer; 60 pages; CCLA. Includes redactions, wrapper, and archival markings.

The possibility that the first pages inscribed by Oliver Cowdery, especially the first two-and-a-half pages following the original heading, were copied from an earlier dictation text cannot be ruled out. At least by October 1830, when John Whitmer replaced Cowdery as scribe, this manuscript is the dictation copy.

The Bible revision manuscripts remained in Joseph Smith’s possession throughout his life—except during a brief period in 1838 and another in 1839. Upon the death of Joseph Smith, the manuscript was in possession of his wife Emma for over twenty years, until 1867 when she gave it to her son Joseph Smith III in order for the RLDS Church to publish The Holy Scriptures.
Joseph Smith Papers, Historical Introduction wrote:In June 1830, only weeks after the Book of Mormon was published (in March) and the Church of Christ organized (in April), Joseph Smith began dictating to Oliver Cowdery a revelation dealing with several key Old Testament figures. The revelation opens with “the words of God which he spake unto Moses,” a visionary experience in which Moses receives a knowledge of God and his Only Begotten and learns the purpose of creation. He sees the spirit creation of all things, the appointment of Christ during a premortal council, the effects of the Fall, and the introduction of the gospel to fallen mankind. Moses understands the place of man in the divine plan and foresees his own future role. The manuscript continues with the story of Adam and Eve and several generations of their descendants. A detailed exposition of the experiences of Enoch is included, even though the biblical account contains only a brief mention of that ancient prophet. The manuscript records Enoch’s prophecies of the coming of the Son of Man and recounts the ministry of Noah and the life of Abraham.

Like many other revelations, this manuscript bears a simple heading. Written in the hand of scribe Cowdery, the heading reads, “A Revelation given to Joseph the Revelator June 1830.” What prompted this revelation when Joseph Smith first began dictating in June 1830 is unknown, but the resulting lengthy manuscript opened an ambitious project of biblical expansion and revision. After the vision of Moses, which recounts a conversation with Deity unrelated to known biblical texts, on the third page and under a new heading (“A Revelation given to the Elders of the Church of Christ On the First Book of Moses”) the manuscript begins an account of the Creation that resembles Genesis 1. The lengthy opening vision and some portions later in the manuscript record prophetic experience at best hinted at in biblical texts, but as the transcript unfolded over the next several months, it became a commentary on and often an expansion of the King James Version of Genesis.

At some point during the creation of this manuscript, Joseph Smith came to see such “restoration” of lost biblical texts as part of his prophetic mission. Book of Mormon passages he dictated to Oliver Cowdery in 1829 spoke of “plain and precious things” missing from “the Book, which is the Book of the Lamb of God” and promised that these “plain and most precious parts of the Gospel of the Lamb” would be restored. (Book of Mormon, 1830 ed., 30–31 [1 Nephi 13:28, 32].) On the third page of this manuscript, just before the beginning of the creation account, this revelation similarly declares that lost scriptural passages “shall be had again among the Children of men.” An early December 1830 revelation was explicit. After affirming that Joseph Smith had been given keys to unlock ancient knowledge, the revelation addressed Sidney Rigdon, commanding “that thou shalt write for [Joseph Smith] and the scriptures shall be given even as they are in mine own bosom.” (Revelation, 7 Dec. 1830, in Doctrine and Covenants 11:5, 1835 ed. [D&C 35:20].)

This manuscript was begun at a time when Joseph Smith and his religious associates in the Susquehanna valley of northern Pennsylvania (Joseph Smith resided in Harmony) and southern New York (a number of followers lived in nearby Colesville) faced intense opposition from both neighbors and civil authorities. Despite such pressures, Joseph Smith and Cowdery may have begun this manuscript in Harmony, but in part to escape harassment later in June they moved north to Fayette Township, New York, a more hospitable environment. When Cowdery departed Fayette in early fall 1830 for a mission to the West, he had written nine manuscript pages from Joseph Smith’s dictation. His replacement as scribe, John Whitmer, inscribed seventeen lines under the date of 21 October 1830, and then another page and a half under the date of 30 November 1830. The next day Emma Smith began writing and inscribed two pages under the date of 1 December 1830. After his early December arrival, Sidney Rigdon, an educated new convert from Ohio, became the main scribe (as commanded in the revelation already noted). Most of the remainder of the sixty-page manuscript is in his hand.

A January 1831 move to Ohio interrupted progress on what was now clearly a work of biblical revision, but Joseph Smith and Rigdon resumed work in February and finished this manuscript in March. Before his move to Ohio in early January 1831, John Whitmer made a copy of the first 19 pages and first five lines of page 20 of the manuscript, possibly indicating that Joseph Smith and Rigdon had finished through Genesis chapter 5 when they moved to Ohio. It is unknown why Whitmer made this copy. When both the Old Testament Revision manuscript and Whitmer were in Ohio, Whitmer made a second copy of the completed manuscript (known as Old Testament Revision 2). He documented his work by inserting a final date at the end of this copy: “April 5th 1831 transcribed thus far.” This original manuscript (Old Testament Revision 1) was then retired and Joseph Smith and Rigdon continued the ambitious Bible revision using Whitmer’s second copy. The project remained an important concern of Joseph Smith into 1833.

The chronology and time span from Shem to Abram is explicitly confirmed in Joseph Smith’s inspired revision of the Genesis account of some 292 years having expired since the flood. Therefore, according to the biblical chronology, which was confirmed through Smith’s revelations, the nation of Egypt had only been in existence for less than 300 years! This is a colossal problem for John Gee and Mormonism that has never been properly addressed by either the critics or the apologists, until NOW!

Calling the Backyard Professor, calling the Backyard Professor! Come in, Backyard Professor! Where are you?

Old Testament Revision 1, June 1830, Handwriting by Sidney Rigdon wrote:
  • Shem being an Hundred years old begat Arphaxed two years after the flood
  • Arphaxed lived five and thrty years and begat Salah
  • Salah lived thirty years and begat Eber
  • Eber lived four and thirty years and begat Peleg
  • Peleg lived thirty years and begat Rheu
  • Rheu ​lived​ two and thirty years and begat Serug
  • Serug lived thirty years and beget Nahor
  • Nahor lived nine and twenty years and begat Terah
  • Terah lived Seventy years and begat Abram
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Mormons think they can change history?

Post by Shulem »

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham wrote:
  • The book of Abraham largely follows the biblical narrative
  • Evidence suggests that elements of the book of Abraham fit comfortably in the ancient world and supports the claim that the book of Abraham is an authentic record.
  • The book of Abraham contains other details that are consistent with modern discoveries about the ancient world.
  • The truth of the book of Abraham is ultimately found through careful study of its teachings, sincere prayer, and the confirmation of the Spirit.
Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham

Indeed, the story largely follows the biblical narrative to include the timeline and chronology recorded by the Jews. But the dating chronicled in the bible and adopted by Smith into his own revelations has been proven false by science and modern Egyptology. The Jews were wrong and so was Joseph Smith who believed the record was true.
But there is no evidence to support the false assertion that Egypt came after a flood in or around 2400 BC. That assertion comes from the Jews, not Egyptology! Mormons, Christians, and Jews have locked hands together in supporting false traditions and inaccurate dating of one of the greatest ancient civilizations of earth’s history. No amount of prayer or faith can make it true. And a Holy Ghost can’t change the past to suit the whims of Mormons today.

The Mormons must repent and confess their error. That means you, John Gee!
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Can YOU count?

Post by Shulem »

Numbers are numbers, period. The value of a number is fixed. Whether in the bible or in any other of Smith’s revelations, they are the same! Math is exact and numbers are exactly what they specify, period. There is no wiggle room to play with the numbers. We know exactly what happened “two years after the flood” and Smith confirmed it by the numbers in his biblical revision or the work of translation of the Genesis account.

Here are three examples to show how Smith’s accounting of Geneses is on the same playing field as any other of his revelations whereby a number is a number, period:

Joseph Smith wrote:
  • Shem being an Hundred years old begat Arphaxed two years after the flood (Old Testament Revision)
  • Methuselah was one hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam (Doctrine and Covenants)
Joseph Smith wrote:
  • Arphaxed lived five and thity years and begat Salah (Old Testament Revision)
  • And Helaman died, in the thirty and fifth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi (Book of Mormon)
Joseph Smith wrote:
  • Salah lived thirty years and begat Eber (Old Testament Revision)
  • And thirty years had passed away from the time we left Jerusalem (Book of Mormon)
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Learning to count

Post by Shulem »

Wolfman Kerry wrote:
Starting at square one -- Arphaxad the son of Shem was born two years after the flood.

Now count with me as we figure out Genesis...

Thirty five years later, Salah was born. Do you follow me?

Image
Last edited by Shulem on Sat Jan 07, 2023 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Learning to count

Post by Shulem »

Wolfman Kerry wrote:
So, Arphaxad was thirty-five -- that’s FIVE more years than thirty if you can count that high.

Image

So, thirty seven years have now gone by since Noah got off the ark. Right?

Presto, Salah was born!

2 + 35 = 37
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Re: Learning to count

Post by Shulem »

Wolfman Kerry wrote:
But now we learn that Eber was born when Salah was thirty-years old and Peleg was born when Eber was thirty-four. That’s a whopping sixty four more years to add to the numbers and now it’s getting complicated. This is just too much to keep track of...

Image

37 + 30 + 34 = 101 years
Last edited by Shulem on Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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