Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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And another blow to the mIsSiNg ScRoLl ThEoRy apologetic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... pologists/

https://www.livescience.com/ancient-egy ... yrus-found

tl;dc - Entire ‘book of the dead’ scrolls have now been found.

This’ll essentially eliminate the apologetic lie the Book of Abraham’s text or narrative would’ve been found on the missing scroll portion. I suppose the apologists can keep doubling down, but it’s a losing proposition.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:03 am
And another blow to the mIsSiNg ScRoLl ThEoRy apologetic:

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... pologists/

https://www.livescience.com/ancient-egy ... yrus-found

tl;dc - Entire ‘book of the dead’ scrolls have now been found.

This’ll essentially eliminate the apologetic lie the Book of Abraham’s text or narrative would’ve been found on the missing scroll portion. I suppose the apologists can keep doubling down, but it’s a losing proposition.

- Doc

Thank you for sharing that information, Doctor CamNC4Me. I agree with the poster at Reddit who said, “It doesn't matter how long the scrolls were.” Every single inch of *that* scroll was representing Egyptian funerary spells and art. ALL OF IT was an illustration and representation of the pagan Egyptian religion and their rites and passages pertaining to their belief system. The Israelites and the Jews had absolutely nothing to do with the papyri in Smith’s possession. Modern Mormon apologetic ideas of those works being redactions of the Jews are a slam on Jehovah and deny the biblical laws of Israel. Apologetics that justify the Facsimiles as having come down from believing Jews is an abomination and sinful in the eyes of Moses. Redaction apologetics is an abomination and wrapped up in lies. Shame on them!

Let me make it perfectly clear that according to Israelite law and doctrine, the Facsimiles (1-3) published by Joseph Smith was a violation of the laws of God! The Facsimiles are representations of Egyptian idolatry and Egyptian gods and is wholly representative of their practices, beliefs, rites, and ordinances. The Facsimiles have absolutely nothing to do with the Hebrew religion and is in fact a slam on the God of the Jewish Bible. Idolatry and the plurality of the Egyptian gods is what the papyri was all about. Let the Mormons be damned for taking Egyptian idolatry and christening it with the Jew’s religion and for thinking that the Jews would have adored such things when in fact their pious laws were wholly monotheistic in nature. Idolatry in all its forms and representations was forbidden under the law of Moses and the prophets thereafter. The Facsimiles did not come from Abraham, Moses, or pious Jews!

Mormon apologist Kevin Barney is off his rocker. Should he choose to come here to this forum and argue his case, I will destroy it.

That includes you too, John Gee. I will wipe your argument out and put you in your place. You need to concede and just give it up. You have lost. It is over.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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This will be able to power LDS apologetics for the next decade. It doesn't matter if it does not lend any validation to the Book of Abraham, it just proves longer scrolls were possible. The breathing permit of Abraham needed to be incredibly long.

More evidence for apologists to cite: https://www.livescience.com/worlds-olde ... one-norway
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:51 pm
It doesn't matter if it does not lend any validation to the Book of Abraham, it just proves longer scrolls were possible. The breathing permit of Abraham needed to be incredibly long.

The Book of Abraham consisting of five chapters would indeed require a very long roll. I’m sure John Gee has done a systematical analysis on the script and knows very well how much space is required to translate the book from English to Egyptian. I would love to see professor Gee produce a handwritten script of the entire Book of Abraham on an actual scroll. Has he bothered to do that? I don’t know. If not, that’s a project he should have undertaken and published long ago. It’s not so much the length of the scroll that would be so interesting to observe but seeing the entire Book of Abraham written in hieratic script! That would be cool! So, why has this not been done? I believe the reason is because it would draw attention to the fact that the existing fragments have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham any more than fragments that are missing from the extant papyrus. A visual aid of this nature would only serve to open the eyes of enquiring minds and cause people to lose faith because they would begin to see that the existing fragments must be of the same genre as the missing ones and vice versa.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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BYU archeologists postulate that the diet of ancient Reformed Egyptians consisted of scones, Jell-O, funerary potatoes, and tuna casserole. They point out the absence of tea and coffee. Reformed crops were raised with the advanced astronomical information provided by Abraham. These Egyptians were rather new to agriculture since their land had just risen from underwater and they were cursed with dark skin.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:19 pm
Egyptians were . . . . cursed with dark skin.

It can’t be denied that Joseph Smith and his successor Brigham Young were racist men insomuch that racism with penalties affixed thereto are written within the works of Mormon canon. Exclusion of negros from the priesthood was strictly maintained by President Young and all Church Presidents after him until Kimball in 1978 relented due to political pressure. Here are some clips in Mormon canon which highlight racism in Mormon scripture as having come directly from the pen of Joseph Smith. Please refer to the webpage Blacks and the Priesthood at Mormon Think.

Joseph Smith believed the Egyptians were originally cursed on account of the racial roots beginning with Ham and his antediluvian wife of Canaanite origin who was believed to be negroid.

Moses 7:8 wrote:For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.
Moses 7:22 wrote:And Enoch also beheld the residue of the people which were the sons of Adam; and they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam save it was the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black, and had not place among them.
Abraham 1:22 wrote:From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land.

The Book of Abraham is ever clear that the Egyptian race began with Egyptus who was a daughter of Ham and his Canaanite wife. Biblical chronology and the timeline therein confirm this period to be in 2300 BC. Joseph Smith certified and rubberstamped this by revelation and official pronouncements as having come from the Spirit.

Joseph Smith AND the Spirit were wrong!

Amen.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:03 am
mIsSiNg ScRoLl ThEoRy

You’re probably aware that Mormon Egyptologists Gee and Muhlestein are divided and differ in how the Book of Abraham was translated. Gee opts for a so-called missing scroll in which Smith correctly translated actual hieroglyphic or hieratic script into the Book of Abraham although *that* part of papyrus was lost and separated from the original roll. On the other hand, Muhlestein is quite comfortable with the idea that Smith translated by way of a catalyst revelation although Smith believed the Egyptian text was actually written by the hand of Abraham and contained the very content that is composed in Smith’s work. Thus, Muhlestein is fine with the idea that Smith believed the Holy Spirit was revealing the story but allowed him to ignorantly remain self-deceived into thinking the papyrus was literally an authentic autograph.

The Church remains seriously divided on how the Book of Abraham was translated because everything about Smith’s translation shows the work was a fraud. It remains to be seen how Gee and Muhlestein can use their differing translation theories to explain how ancient Egypt was established and founded in the manner and time as expressed in the Book of Abraham, Bible, and incorrect contemporaneous sources known to Joseph Smith.

Let Both Gee and Muhlestein come here to Discuss Mormonism and argue their cause and attempt to show how their pet theories clear these matters up. I will take both of them on at the same time, blindfolded and with one hand tied behind my back.

Gee, what have you to say for yourself? You know you have lost. It’s over. Will you slam (no pun intended) Narmer and deny 3000 BC is the beginning of dynastic Egypt? What have you to say of Anubis’s nose that was hacked out of the lead plate?

Muhlestein, what’s your sorry excuse? Your pet theory is utterly bankrupt and without precedent! Smith claimed his views of the authenticity of the scrolls were genuine works of the Patriarchs having been sealed up in the tomb for some 3,500 years. He publicly claimed that by the Holy Spirit and in the name of the Lord! Care to come to Discuss Mormonism and have a serious discussion with someone who knows more than you on this subject matter?

I rest my case. Both of you are cowards. You hide behind your academic credentials and pretend to know things you do not. It’s utterly pathetic.


PS. The Backyard Professor can run but he can’t hide!

;)
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Joseph Fielding Smith

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I find it stunning the Pearl of Great Price Student Manual uses exclusive teachings and explanations tendered from Joseph Fielding Smith to expound on Abraham 1:25. Smith was unqualified and incapable of correctly discussing ancient Egypt’s origins because he refused to believe modern Egyptology and principles of science that back knowledge of historical truth. Let’s peek at what one of Mormonism’s most famous theologians had to say about the origins of Egypt as explained in the Book of Abraham.

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:Egypt was not the only nation, in these early times, which attempted to imitate the patriarchal order of government. We have seen in Abraham’s record that this was the order of government in the reign of Adam, and down to the time of Noah.

President Smith points out that the new nation of Egypt attempted to imitate the patriarchal order of government that existed from the reign of Adam all the way down to NOAH who left the ark on Ararat whereby soon after Egypt was founded by Ham’s progeny. This is proof that the Church today teaches that the government and nation of Egypt was founded AFTER Noah’s flood. Therefore:

  • Egypt did not exist prior to Noah and the flood dated at 2400 BC
  • The Pyramids must have been built after the flood
  • Modern Egyptology is wrong to date the unification at 3000 BC

President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:Naturally that form of government would be perpetuated in large degree by all tribes as they began to spread over the face of the earth. As men multiplied they organized first in the family group, then into tribes and eventually into nations. The greater powers would naturally occupy the most favored spots. Stronger tribes would overcome the weaker and force them to join the national government, or else they would be subdued and treated as slaves, or placed under tribute. As the patriarchal order was handed down from father to son so also would the political authority be perpetuated with the same claims to authority. We know that in ancient times in Egypt, Assyria, Chaldea, Babylon, Persia, and among all the petty nations of the Mesopotamia and Palestine, the monarch was succeeded by his posterity in hereditary right (The Progress of Man [1944], 100–101.)

It’s readily apparent that President Smith is making the point that all nations that came into existence AFTER the flood was accomplished by the migration of tribes having originated from the family of Noah which multiplied and eventually formed the nations listed by Smith -- to include Egypt.

It’s incredible that the infamous author of Man, His Origin and Destiny had the audacity to explain the origins of ancient Egypt based on the falsehoods of the Book of Abraham. Joseph Fielding Smith spent his entire life deceiving others and lying for the Lord. Today the Church continues in that same spirit of deception and Pearl of Great Price Central carries the torch!
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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From the Wikipedia:
According to Fawn Brodie, Smith's idea of Kolob may have been derived from the "throne of God" idea found in Thomas Dick's The Philosophy of a Future State,[48] which Brodie said Smith "had recently been reading" before dictating the Book of Abraham, and which "made a lasting impression" on him.[49]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob
Shulem, do you know anything more about this? Glancing at Thomas Dick's ideas, it seems like it influenced both Joseph and Brigham with their inhabitants of the Sun and Moon ideas.
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Re: Historical Predynastic Egypt vs. Book of Abraham False Narrative

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Moksha wrote:
Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:47 am
From the Wikipedia:
According to Fawn Brodie, Smith's idea of Kolob may have been derived from the "throne of God" idea found in Thomas Dick's The Philosophy of a Future State,[48] which Brodie said Smith "had recently been reading" before dictating the Book of Abraham, and which "made a lasting impression" on him.[49]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolob
Shulem, do you know anything more about this? Glancing at Thomas Dick's ideas, it seems like it influenced both Joseph and Brigham with their inhabitants of the Sun and Moon ideas.

I’m afraid I’ll have to admit that I don’t know much about a Dick in Smith connection but it sure does appear interesting and deserves a serious look. I will put this on my list of things to do. I’m fairly confident that Smith borrowed (stole) all kinds of ideas from others including the “One Eternal Now.” Smith’s theivery was ever constant. His hands were in many cookie jars.

Wikipedia wrote:Criticism of the Book of Abraham

Thomas Dick's A Philosophy of a Future State

The Book of Abraham has a section on astronomy discussing the throne of God as being the center of the Universe, and "intelligences" that God created, who progressed eternally. Several historians, including Fawn M. Brodie, have argued that these ideas came directly from Thomas Dick and his popular book A Philosophy of a Future State, which similarly discusses grades of "intelligences" created by God who eternally progress, and a system of astronomy with God's throne at the very center. Sidney Rigdon quoted from Dick's book in 1836, Oliver Cowdery published a passage of the book in the Messenger and Advocate, and in January 1844 Smith himself donated his copy of Dick's book to the Nauvoo library in 1844. That said, the historian John L. Brooke notes that there are several other contemporary sources besides Dick that could have been the source of inspiration for the Book of Abraham. LDS historian Benjamin Park similarly notes that the direct link to Dick is tenuous and the ideas could have come from the cultural milieu.
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