Atheists on the Benefits of Non-Toxic Spiritual Beliefs or Religion

[bill4long]

What do you mean by non-toxic? Beliefs that don't offend your emotions?

Non-toxic to the individual practicing those beliefs and practices.

Okay, I see. We'll, I don't think I could improve upon John Lennon's lyric when he said, whatever gets your through the night, is all right, all right... Whatever gets you through your life, is all right, all right.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7bKZtoTwy8

[Free Ranger]

Thanks for your input.

I completely agree with you! But that is not what I meant by the sugar pill. To be clear, I am NOT personally advocating Brighamite Utah-based Mormonism and falling into the trap of seeking a "worthy" status within a Purity System. I don't believe in a malicious super being you mentioned either, my reconstructed views don't even include a literal satan. My views are my own, which I express here: http://emergentmormon.blogspot.com/

... If the videos were presented by fundamentalist/dogmatic type religionists, I would understand why no one would be interested in what they have to say, but these are all atheists.

That’s not responsive to my objection to your analogy. I used Mormonism because it’s the religious tradition I was raised in and people here are familiar with it. I take it that none of the videos talk about benefits of believing in your reconstructed Mormonism. That being the case, the specifics of your detoxified Mormonism aren’t relevant. The fact is that the folks in your videos were born into and have lived their lives in a culture that is predisposed to associate religious belief with happiness. The dice are loaded in favor of a positive view of religion. There is no point at which everyone is suddenly introduced to religion for the first time with no preconceptions about whether it will increase or decrease their well-being. That’s why I don’t think your analogy works.

But before we get to the specific videos, I want to clarify what you think they show. Are you claiming that the show there is some special ingredient present in “religious belief,” however defined that is (1) unique to religious belief and (2) universally beneficial to humans?

Your objection to my analogy is noted. I tried, and I believe I genuinely did respond to you adequately. I am not committed to my analogy, so you can just toss it out from your mind if you wish. I agree with you that my reconstructed heterodox lifestance is not covered in the videos, but this thread is not about my views, which are subjective to me as an individual and anecdotal, which I acknowledged over and over in many posts. As the OP, I am more focused on the content in the videos themselves.

I am sensing that for some people (I'm not singling you out to be clear) that their experience with religion and spirituality has been so toxic and so damaging that there are unconscious defense mechanisms in place. Don't think I don't understand that. There was a time that if a Mormon family member was talking to me and they said something like "Well, you know Nephi said this or that," I would get immediately triggered and angry because that family member knew I resigned my membership and I was an atheist and didn't want to hear it. I was in that state for a good 10-20 years. So don't think I'm not sensitive to the toxic forms of religion, in particular certain forms of Mormonism. But Dr. Shades personally said I was welcome here and I should be treated with a welcoming attitude so I've decided to stay and continue to share my views and ask questions and discuss.

You have to understand, that while you have your story I have mine. I have a unique story and experience that might be different from yours. For example, I served half my mission in Independence Missouri and so I became aware of all of these different restoration branches. I started to see that not every group's experience is the same. For example, John Dehlin interviewed the leader of the RLDS and he acted like it would be bizarre to have "worthiness interviews" and toxically shame someone as I experienced growing up in the Brighamite sect. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I can only say I assure you I am not a threat. I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm just offering options and alternative points of view in the marketplace of ideas and worldviews. That's it. If my views and my choices in reconstructing are let's say completely idiotic to you and worthless, then that's fine. As Gadianton said, to each their own.

If I may, I think you have too readily jumped to conclusions and assigned ulterior motives and/or bias to the scientists in the videos. I think if you were to take that attitude then just about any scientific claim and lab results can be dismissed on similar grounds, no?

By the way, Andy Thompson is an atheist and at the time he made this video he was part of the Richard Dawkins Atheist-group, and still is last I checked, and he has other videos where he talks about the toxic forms of religion. Which actually surprised me when he made this video showing the benefits of religious practice, which made his arguments and the evidence he presented all the more fascinating to me.

You seem dismissive a priori as to the content of the videos? Wouldn't it be better just to be open-minded and check out the videos and see what they have to say?

Whenever I have mentioned articles or videos to read to extremely devout Mormons, they often don't want to watch a video or read an article, or do anything because they have this defensive posture, as if I have an ulterior motive and I'm trying to change their mind and get them to leave the Church. In those cases I really just wanted them to understand my perspective and if they stayed Mormon fine, but at least they would understand me better. I'm doing something similar here except it's not so much about seeking to be understood. But just curious at what others think of this information I have learned. So I can learn from others reactions and smart opinions and perspectives and gain something from it. Maybe even change my mind.

I guess I'm just more curious. I will read or watch or listen to anything, especially if it doesn't take too much of my time. So I'm actually very curious why no one seems to want to address the actual videos and instead hyper focus on me as an individual. Every post so far by a commenter has been directed at me rather than the videos themselves.

The amateur psychologist in me is intrigued by this phenomenon. For example, why are you so interested in me clarifying what what I think the videos show? Because it feels like you want to know if they might send you down a certain road of inquiry and experimentation, which you are reluctant to do or think about. Am I mistaken in that? Thus you feel defensive and resistant. Am I wrong in my perception?

Nevertheless, to answer your question, no they don't present some "special ingredient present in 'religious belief,' however defined that is (1) unique to religious belief and (2) universally beneficial to humans?" Some special ingredient no, but they do show that brain scans and other lab tests show that a lot of religious beliefs and behavior (which can be as broad as secular meditation, a Viking reading the Eddas, or Roman soldiers marching in unison after a mithraic ritual, or people in an AA meetimg saying the serenity prayer in unison), many such practices does improve mental health and brain scans show evidence of positive benefit from many forms of religious belief and practice, but no not all religious practice and beliefs. But I would just suggest that you let the content of the videos speak for themselves and leave me out of it in order to remove me from the equation so you can just focus on the content itself, that is if you so choose.

[Res Ipsa]

That’s not responsive to my objection to your analogy. I used Mormonism because it’s the religious tradition I was raised in and people here are familiar with it. I take it that none of the videos talk about benefits of believing in your reconstructed Mormonism. That being the case, the specifics of your detoxified Mormonism aren’t relevant. The fact is that the folks in your videos were born into and have lived their lives in a culture that is predisposed to associate religious belief with happiness. The dice are loaded in favor of a positive view of religion. There is no point at which everyone is suddenly introduced to religion for the first time with no preconceptions about whether it will increase or decrease their well-being. That’s why I don’t think your analogy works.

But before we get to the specific videos, I want to clarify what you think they show. Are you claiming that the show there is some special ingredient present in “religious belief,” however defined that is (1) unique to religious belief and (2) universally beneficial to humans?

Your objection to my analogy is noted. I tried, and I believe I genuinely did respond to you adequately. I am not committed to my analogy, so you can just toss it out from your mind if you wish. I agree with you that my reconstructed heterodox lifestance is not covered in the videos, but this thread is not about my views, which are subjective to me as an individual and anecdotal, which I acknowledged over and over in many posts. As the OP, I am more focused on the content in the videos themselves.

I am sensing that for some people (I'm not singling you out to be clear) that their experience with religion and spirituality has been so toxic and so damaging that there are unconscious defense mechanisms in place. Don't think I don't understand that. There was a time that if a Mormon family member was talking to me and they said something like "Well, you know Nephi said this or that," I would get immediately triggered and angry because that family member knew I resigned my membership and I was an atheist and didn't want to hear it. I was in that state for a good 10-20 years. So don't think I'm not sensitive to the toxic forms of religion, in particular certain forms of Mormonism. But Dr. Shades personally said I was welcome here and I should be treated with a welcoming attitude so I've decided to stay and continue to share my views and ask questions and discuss.

You have to understand, that while you have your story I have mine. I have a unique story and experience that might be different from yours. For example, I served half my mission in Independence Missouri and so I became aware of all of these different restoration branches. I started to see that not every group's experience is the same. For example, John Dehlin interviewed the leader of the RLDS and he acted like it would be bizarre to have "worthiness interviews" and toxically shame someone as I experienced growing up in the Brighamite sect. Do you see what I'm getting at?

I can only say I assure you I am not a threat. I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm just offering options and alternative points of view in the marketplace of ideas and worldviews. That's it. If my views and my choices in reconstructing are let's say completely idiotic to you and worthless, then that's fine. As Gadianton said, to each their own.

If I may, I think you have too readily jumped to conclusions and assigned ulterior motives and/or bias to the scientists in the videos. I think if you were to take that attitude then just about any scientific claim and lab results can be dismissed on similar grounds, no?

By the way, Andy Thompson is an atheist and at the time he made this video he was part of the Richard Dawkins Atheist-group, and still is last I checked, and he has other videos where he talks about the toxic forms of religion. Which actually surprised me when he made this video showing the benefits of religious practice, which made his arguments and the evidence he presented all the more fascinating to me.

You seem dismissive a priori as to the content of the videos? Wouldn't it be better just to be open-minded and check out the videos and see what they have to say?

Whenever I have mentioned articles or videos to read to extremely devout Mormons, they often don't want to watch a video or read an article, or do anything because they have this defensive posture, as if I have an ulterior motive and I'm trying to change their mind and get them to leave the Church. In those cases I really just wanted them to understand my perspective and if they stayed Mormon fine, but at least they would understand me better. I'm doing something similar here except it's not so much about seeking to be understood. But just curious at what others think of this information I have learned. So I can learn from others reactions and smart opinions and perspectives and gain something from it. Maybe even change my mind.

I guess I'm just more curious. I will read or watch or listen to anything, especially if it doesn't take too much of my time. So I'm actually very curious why no one seems to want to address the actual videos and instead hyper focus on me as an individual. Every post so far by a commenter has been directed at me rather than the videos themselves.

The amateur psychologist in me is intrigued by this phenomenon. For example, why are you so interested in me clarifying what what I think the videos show? Because it feels like you want to know if they might send you down a certain road of inquiry and experimentation, which you are reluctant to do or think about. Am I mistaken in that? Thus you feel defensive and resistant. Am I wrong in my perception?

Nevertheless, to answer your question, no they don't present some "special ingredient present in 'religious belief,' however defined that is (1) unique to religious belief and (2) universally beneficial to humans?" Some special ingredient no, but they do show that brain scans and other lab tests show that a lot of religious beliefs and behavior (which can be as broad as secular meditation, a Viking reading the Eddas, or Roman soldiers marching in unison after a mithraic ritual, or people in an AA meetimg saying the serenity prayer in unison), many such practices does improve mental health and brain scans show evidence of positive benefit from many forms of religious belief and practice, but no not all religious practice and beliefs. But I would just suggest that you let the content of the videos speak for themselves and leave me out of it in order to remove me from the equation so you can just focus on the content itself, that is if you so choose.

I’m sure I have all kinds of, some that I’m aware of and others that I’m not. I don’t think I’m biased against religion. Mormonism worked perfectly for me for 18 years, and then it didn’t. It went from working perfectly to being toxic to my mental health over the course of around 18 months. I did leave my mission early because I no longer believed what I was required to say and do. And I only encountered one person among all my Mormon friends, family, leaders, etc. who was anything but kind and respectful of my decision to part ways with the church. I was very lucky in that respect.

I disagree strongly with some things that some religious folks say and do, and I responded to those on a case by case basis. And the same is true with respect to other non-believers.

If someone says to me, here’s something that made my life better, I may try it out if it appeals to me. I practice mindfulness meditation, and I think my life is better when I do it on a regular basis. I don’t associate it with Spirituality or religion at all. It simply helps me both with anxiety and focus. Some parts of Bhuddist philosophy have given me a framework for looking at the world that I think is healthy and contributes to my well being. But, again, I don’t connect them at all with the common understanding of the words religion or spirituality.

I am, however, not interested at all in spending any time or effort reconsidering my stance toward religion or belief in Gods. I didn’t set out to become an atheist. It’s just where I ended up. And I’m perfectly comfortable with that. And I’ve used up my patience for those who want to persuade me that I would be better off reconsidering that stance.

So, if you want to tell me about how reconstructing Mormonism helps you be happier or more fulfilled or a better person, I’m all ears. If I hear something that I think might work for me, I’ll decide whether I want to try it out.

in my opinion, this thread goes beyond you telling me about what works for you and crosses into trying to persuade me that you’ve found a better way for me. I get that your experience with atheism was that of an angry atheist. I’m not an angry atheist. I’ve never been an angry atheist. And I’m comfortable and confident enough in my stance toward religion that I don’t have to validate my stance by persuading anyone else to adopt it.

The notion of a spiritual atheist is no surprise to me. Spiritually is a broad, fuzzy concept that means lots of different things to different people. People don’t fall neatly into categories, and people don’t define the types of categories we are discussing in the same way. Heck, there is no generally accepted definition of atheist, even among self-described atheists.

I would love to sit down with Brian Greene and discuss how whatever he believes about religion or spirituality helps him be a better Brian Greene. Preferably over a beer. Or two.

I have no interest in watching a video of Brian Greene telling me stuff, unless it’s physics or cosmology or something he’s an expert in that I find interesting. Being an atheist gives Brian Greene exactly zero street cred on the subject of whether religious or spiritual practice will make my life better. When it comes to fMRI data, I know that the results have been way over interpreted when it comes to the meaning of increased blood flow to parts of the brain. The hype surrounding the interpreting of fMRI scans has gone way beyond their evidential value. Again, if all you intend to do is tell us about something that works for you, why are you appealing to these atheists to support your views?

[Marcus]

I assume you mean from the videos listed in the op? I so, i wouldn't know, i don't watch a lot of videos like that. If you mean atheists in general, i doubt they all agree. I was expressing my opinion as an athest, and also as a scientist.

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of scientist are you?

I prefer not to doxx myself, but what I can say is I am a Professor at a major east coast university, where I specialize in math and statistics for economics and public policy analysis.

[Free Ranger]

If you don't mind me asking, what kind of scientist are you?

I prefer not to doxx myself, but what I can say is I am a Professor at a major east coast university, where I specialize in math and statistics for economics and public policy analysis.

Impressive.

I'm always impressed with those who are good at math. I have a brother who's an engineer and we were roommates one time and I remember seeing his textbooks and just being amazed that he could understand all that advanced mathematics. I am more of an artist poet and philosophical, I was never good at math.

[Free Ranger]

Your objection to my analogy is noted. I tried, and I believe I genuinely did respond to you adequately. I am not committed to my analogy, so you can just toss it out from your mind if you wish. I agree with you that my reconstructed heterodox lifestance is not covered in the videos, but this thread is not about my views, which are subjective to me as an individual and anecdotal, which I acknowledged over and over in many posts. As the OP, I am more focused on the content in the videos themselves....

I’m sure I have all kinds of, some that I’m aware of and others that I’m not. I don’t think I’m biased against religion. Mormonism worked perfectly for me for 18 years, and then it didn’t. It went from working perfectly to being toxic to my mental health over the course of around 18 months. I did leave my mission early because I no longer believed what I was required to say and do. And I only encountered one person among all my Mormon friends, family, leaders, etc. who was anything but kind and respectful of my decision to part ways with the church. I was very lucky in that respect.

I disagree strongly with some things that some religious folks say and do, and I responded to those on a case by case basis. And the same is true with respect to other non-believers.

If someone says to me, here’s something that made my life better, I may try it out if it appeals to me. I practice mindfulness meditation, and I think my life is better when I do it on a regular basis. I don’t associate it with Spirituality or religion at all. It simply helps me both with anxiety and focus. Some parts of Bhuddist philosophy have given me a framework for looking at the world that I think is healthy and contributes to my well being. But, again, I don’t connect them at all with the common understanding of the words religion or spirituality.

I am, however, not interested at all in spending any time or effort reconsidering my stance toward religion or belief in Gods. I didn’t set out to become an atheist. It’s just where I ended up. And I’m perfectly comfortable with that. And I’ve used up my patience for those who want to persuade me that I would be better off reconsidering that stance.

So, if you want to tell me about how reconstructing Mormonism helps you be happier or more fulfilled or a better person, I’m all ears. If I hear something that I think might work for me, I’ll decide whether I want to try it out.

in my opinion, this thread goes beyond you telling me about what works for you and crosses into trying to persuade me that you’ve found a better way for me. I get that your experience with atheism was that of an angry atheist. I’m not an angry atheist. I’ve never been an angry atheist. And I’m comfortable and confident enough in my stance toward religion that I don’t have to validate my stance by persuading anyone else to adopt it.

The notion of a spiritual atheist is no surprise to me. Spiritually is a broad, fuzzy concept that means lots of different things to different people. People don’t fall neatly into categories, and people don’t define the types of categories we are discussing in the same way. Heck, there is no generally accepted definition of atheist, even among self-described atheists.

I would love to sit down with Brian Greene and discuss how whatever he believes about religion or spirituality helps him be a better Brian Greene. Preferably over a beer. Or two.

I have no interest in watching a video of Brian Greene telling me stuff, unless it’s physics or cosmology or something he’s an expert in that I find interesting. Being an atheist gives Brian Greene exactly zero street cred on the subject of whether religious or spiritual practice will make my life better. When it comes to fMRI data, I know that the results have been way over interpreted when it comes to the meaning of increased blood flow to parts of the brain. The hype surrounding the interpreting of fMRI scans has gone way beyond their evidential value. Again, if all you intend to do is tell us about something that works for you, why are you appealing to these atheists to support your views?

Hey, we have something in common Res Ipsa. In other posts I discussed how I left my mission midway through and like you I was not treated that well by many. I discussed this in more detail in the thread:

viewtopic.php?t=157768

When I did decide to complete my mission the bishop was very rude at a meeting with all the leaders as someone said "free ranger" has decided to complete his mission and I remember to this day, the bishop sarcastically with a snarky attitude saying "it's about time." I remember thinking, am I not an individual? Do I not have the right to think about things as it's my life? It was very disrespectful and being a nonconformist person by nature and resistant to authoritarian personalities, I bristled with that. So I relate to what you're saying.

We also have something in common in we both have benefited from mindfulness-based stress reduction or secular meditation, which helped me throughout the years with my own occasional anxiety; although I haven't meditated recently, perhaps my reconstruction of a heterodox spiritual view is kind of taking that place for now at least. As I'm really just experimenting with whatever empowers me as an individual and is not toxic nor harmful to myself or others. I am not seekimg to persuade those who want to be left alone. For example, I remember Christopher Hitchens not being a fan of Buddhist practices and so for him meditation I think would be toxic because in his mind it's shutting off your busy mind and he valued his mind and thinking more than anything. Thus if someone started to share links to meditation and suggested other people watch them. Christopher Hitchens might say that person is trying to persuade him, when really the person might just want to share some links about meditation to consider; get what I mean?

I fully respect your position of not wanting to reconsider belief in God and all that and I am not advocating doctrinaire theism or scriptural fundamentalism. As mentioned, my foundations are grounded a lot in the works of Marcus Borg and John Spong, both were technically non-theist in their conceptions of "God."

To answer some of your concerns. I guess I'm kind of treating this forum like a philosophy club to "discuss Mormonism" all "all [views] welcome" as the site's banner says, where people just talk and exchange ideas and discuss things back and forth, and one person tries on a point of view like a hat and says "okay I understand how this hat fits and I understand how it works for you, but you know what it doesn't fit me." That is how I'm treating my point of view. Or like taking a world religion class and just understanding other points of view and other religious ideas or atheism, even if you end up disagreeing at least you understand the point of view of the other person.

If as you said I have made you think I'm trying to persuade you because I think I found a better way for you then I need to work on my communication and communicate better because that is not my intention. My thinking was that after double checking the board rules it is clear we are to stay on topic and not derail the thread which we were doing myself included, and so because my opening post was about these videos I wanted to know what other people think, if they agree or disagree, and so I was just wanting everyone to focus on the content of those videos; and so if that was interpreted as me trying to persuade you and led your to think my view is better than yours, that really was not my intention. In fact, I can say sincerely that when I was an atheist and quite content, my views now would not have been good for me then. Just as Mormonism worked for you until it didn't. Atheism, or my version of nihilistic atheism (as you said different atheisms), worked for me until it didn't.

I am writing to both test my ideas, share my ideas for others to simply learn from and understand (if willing), and also for anyone who is where I am at in their own existential journey and curious about exploring alternative points of view. I believe this is the place to do that because the banner of the website is clear that this is for all types, right?

I figured those who didn't want to watch the videos or were not interested in the subject would simply not watch them and not post anything in the thread.

I'm definitely not somebody who tries to convince someone of anything if they are happy where they are at. I am sharing a path among many paths, and I am of the opinion that everybody will be at a different stage of grief and loss and transitional phase after leaving Mormonism and will be at different stages or positions of religious or irreligious practice, and so if you are not ready or interested or it will never work for you, I'm not here to persuade you of anything. I am not a salesman. I sucked at sales when I tried it, I was too busy thinking about the other person and if they really need this product and not feeling willing to shove the product down their throat if they did not really want it. But because this is a board for everyone then I thought maybe some people might be interested in different points of view or different ways of looking at things.

I don't think I said that I was an "angry atheist." The context for me getting irritated was when certain types of Mormons that did not respect my boundaries and would not seek to understand my point of view but then continued to try and indoctrinate me when I asked them not to. I feel like this situation is different. I am posting in the celestial forum. I am posting on a board where all views are welcome.

I'm not saying that my perspective is the only right way or there is any better way as each way affects different individuals differently. I'm just sharing a journey, my story, and what works for me. I know that not everyone is like me or where I am at or anything like that. So I'm just trying to share ideas. I think that is acceptable, no?

You asked why am I appealing to these atheists to support my view? Well it's obvious is it not? Most, or many, atheists nowadays are critical of religion, so when I kept encountering atheists who admit there is some practical benefit to non-toxic beliefs. I thought that was worth mentioning and pointing out for others if they wanted to explore it and to share a different perspective. I was personally persuaded by their arguments and the evidence they present, that we likely evolved to form spiritual or religious belief in that there are mental health benefits to doing so, as long as the beliefs are non-toxic or acting as positive placebos and not negative nocebos. When I was a devout Mormon and in the Purity Culture and system of worthiness interviews I experienced some placebos but eventually more nocebos in the form of a degree of scrupulosity and feelings of inadequacy as Luna Lindsey covers in her book Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control. So I had written off religion and spirituality altogether as an atheist, except mindfulness meditation as I mentioned, but over the years being open-minded I kept running into all these studies and all these atheists and books and videos and podcasts all pointing out that there is in fact strong scientific data and laboratory evidence that many forms of spiritual practice and belief is in fact healthy for your psyche and well-being. Yes I consumed the other points of view trying to counter that view, trying to give a counter-argument, and after assessing all the back and forth between the laboratory results and different atheistic scientists arguing amongst each other, I realized that the consensus view as summarized in the videos in this OP, made me realize that it's not stupid on my part to form some kind of reconstructed "spiritual" lifestance. Once I got over the idea that it's "religulous" as Bill Maher argued in his documentary, and actually might be smart to reconstruct some kind of spiritual view in order to be slightly more mentally healthy and happier, I said to myself, "well, if there is no God and no soul and we all cease to exist and there's no objective right and wrong and we are all worm food someday, what does it matter if I hold some unprovable belief in my head or at least entertain it as a possibility?" I realized, why be macho as a strong "macho" atheist who doesn't to appeal to any kind of unprovable beliefs, if my "machizmo" was actually kind of stupid or unwise, and it would be smarter to entertain the possibility of spiritual ideas and beliefs if I could because the majority of atheistic scientists themselves were saying that there's something to it. Once, I went down that road by merely entertaining possibilities and reconstructing heterodox views I felt existentially more "buoyed up" from the abyss of existential nihilism, which was beneficial to me personally giving me improved mental health. Note that my nihilism was a later phase of my atheism and so for a good 10 years as an atheist I was perfectly content and even happy as a kind of secular humanist. So I am not writing to the content and happy Atheist or exmormon who is anti-spirituality and antitheist and wants to stay that way. I am writing for anyone who is in a similar stage as I am or curious about just understanding other points of view like putting on a hat and then deciding if or if not it does fit them or not.

[Res Ipsa]

Free Ranger,

I think we have much in common, despite ending up in different places. I think our perspective on the videos reflects our different experiences around atheism. I've encountered so many spiritual, but not religious, atheists that they don't surprise me at all. Regardless, I appreciate your willingness to present and explain your views.

A tip on the derail issue. As the starter of the thread, you aren't under any obligation to keep the topic narrow. We don't consider a change of subject by the person who started the thread as a "derail" - you can't derail your own thread. The moderators treat that as an expansion of the topic. Conversations tend to have a natural meander, and we take that into account. If someone else derails a thread you start in Celestial, most folks will respond to a polite request to keep on topic. If not, send us a report and we'll take a look. If it's a derail you think is worth pursuing, just respond to its substance and we'll treat that as on topic.

[Free Ranger]

Free Ranger,

I think we have much in common, despite ending up in different places. I think our perspective on the videos reflects our different experiences around atheism. I've encountered so many spiritual, but not religious, atheists that they don't surprise me at all. Regardless, I appreciate your willingness to present and explain your views.

A tip on the derail issue. As the starter of the thread, you aren't under any obligation to keep the topic narrow. We don't consider a change of subject by the person who started the thread as a "derail" - you can't derail your own thread. The moderators treat that as an expansion of the topic. Conversations tend to have a natural meander, and we take that into account. If someone else derails a thread you start in Celestial, most folks will respond to a polite request to keep on topic. If not, send us a report and we'll take a look. If it's a derail you think is worth pursuing, just respond to its substance and we'll treat that as on topic.

Thanks for the heads up, I didn't know that. Thanks for sharing. Meander away

[bill4long]

I don't know if this will help or not, but, look, you're gonna die. And you're puzzled about the meaning of life. "Am I going to be judged? What am I supppose to be doing here?" Etc. Etc.

Relax.

Lion eat gazelles.

Humans do what humans do.

It's a wild and woolley experience. Embrace the weirdness of it all. Because, given the evidence, if there is a god/creator, he/she/it is a fricking weirdo. (And you might be part of the weirdo.)

Again I say... relax. And enjoy the ride. Just like being on a roller coaster. Or a strong dose of LSD.

Blessings

[Free Ranger]

I don't know if this will help or not, but, look, you're gonna die. And you're puzzled about the meaning of life. "Am I going to be judged? What am I supppose to be doing here?" Etc. Etc.

Relax.

Lion eat gazelles.

Humans do what humans do.

It's a wild and woolley experience. Embrace the weirdness of it all. Because, given the evidence, if there is a god/creator, he/she/it is a fricking weirdo. (And you might be part of the weirdo.)

Again I say... relax. And enjoy the ride. Just like being on a roller coaster. Or a strong dose of LSD.

Blessings

That sounds a bit like the Philosophy of Absurdism and Nietzche's emphasis on the Laughter of the Heights. That was my view for years. It worked for me for a while. Then it didn't. Now these views I explore here http://emergentmormon.blogspot.com/ are working for me. To each their own.

Blessings in return