River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

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Shulem
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:46 am
shulem, it is nice that you made blocks of one hundred for counting. I see you actually made an accurate repeat of that number. One would figure counting dead would not be laid out is such helpfully even blocks.

It doesn’t seem right in my mind that 12,532 enemy forces would have been counted in order to be recorded in the record book. A general acknowledgment of thousands being slain and strewn about on the battlefield is believable or an estimate in stating 10,000 or more were slain, but the exact number 12,532 sticks out like a sore thumb and is a red flag in demonstrating the story doesn’t ring true.

Suppose the story was true and General Alma was withdrawing to head for the valley of Gideon with his main forces to pursue the fleeing Almicites -- how would the dead left behind at hill Amnihu be counted? One would think that Alma would consider such action as a contingency of something that might be accomplished but to what end remains in question. Suppose he left a garrison at Amnihu behind to address and maintain the aftermath of the battlefield to include the logistics of counting the dead and caring for the wounded. How many men would it take to divide the field or theatre of operations in which the Amlicites could be effectively counted wherein a clerk for each section is appointed to account for a sum in which to report to the head clerk? Over 12,000 bodies are a lot to be accounted for and there were only so many daylight hours left on the clock for DAY ONE in which the battle took place. The following day would have provided more time but to what end or reason is there to get an exact count? I think the only reason we are given that number is because Joseph Smith thought to do so while telling a story.
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by huckelberry »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:02 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 1:46 am
shulem, it is nice that you made blocks of one hundred for counting. I see you actually made an accurate repeat of that number. One would figure counting dead would not be laid out is such helpfully even blocks.

It doesn’t seem right in my mind that 12,532 enemy forces would have been counted in order to be recorded in the record book. A general acknowledgment of thousands being slain and strewn about on the battlefield is believable or an estimate in stating 10,000 or more were slain, but the exact number 12,532 sticks out like a sore thumb and is a red flag in demonstrating the story doesn’t ring true.

Suppose the story was true and General Alma was withdrawing to head for the valley of Gideon with his main forces to pursue the fleeing Almicites -- how would the dead left behind at hill Amnihu be counted? One would think that Alma would consider such action as a contingency of something that might be accomplished but to what end remains in question. Suppose he left a garrison at Amnihu behind to address and maintain the aftermath of the battlefield to include the logistics of counting the dead and caring for the wounded. How many men would it take to divide the field or theatre of operations in which the Amlicites could be effectively counted wherein a clerk for each section is appointed to account for a sum in which to report to the head clerk? Over 12,000 bodies are a lot to be accounted for and there were only so many daylight hours left on the clock for DAY ONE in which the battle took place. The following day would have provided more time but to what end or reason is there to get an exact count? I think the only reason we are given that number is because Joseph Smith thought to do so while telling a story.
Shulem, perhaps I should clarify that my comment was agreeing with your point.

Your pointing out the detail of ,I would think impossible, counting of that many dead raised my curiosity to read the section in question. For me the events leading to and precipitating this war are quite unrealistic.They sound like the invention of a youthful storyteller. Perhaps those are not as big a stretch to my mind as the idea of mustering the size of army that would have 12 thousand individuals to start with. At least to my mind everything about the story is unrealistically inflated as if formed in the imagination of an excited youthful storyteller.

Perhaps a person could consider my perception as just my assumptions. Perhaps. Your focus on the specific detail of counting is more concrete and not so easily dismissed .
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Shulem
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:05 pm
For me the events leading to and precipitating this war are quite unrealistic.They sound like the invention of a youthful storyteller.

Well, Smith was still in his early 20’s when he began to work on the Book of Mormon in which his youth was not very far behind. Smith had no military training and the only thing he knew about war and military is what he read in the Bible, Late War, and other publications available to him.

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2023 5:05 pm
At least to my mind everything about the story is unrealistically inflated as if formed in the imagination of an excited youthful storyteller.

Yes! Remember the stories young Joseph was reported to tell his family while gathered to hear recitals about the ancient American Indians?

Lucy Mack Smith wrote:During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined: he would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent; their dress, mode of travelling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, and their buildings, with every particular; he would describe their mode of warfare, as also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them.

Thank you, mother Smith, for letting us know that your boy was a storyteller and had such an amazing imagination in doing so! The apple didn’t fall too from from the tree seeing mother Smith was a bit batty in my opinion.

I testify with all my heart and mind that I know the Book of Mormon is pure fiction. It is not a true story.

Amen.
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Limnor »

Coupla things:

1) I appreciate your persistence shulem
2) i’ve never seen anyone consider the environs around Kirtland as a possible location for the activity you’ve concentrated on
3) the Chagrin River and hills near Kirtland could serve as Sidon and Zarahemla, and Mentor could be the Manti within the story
4) continuing with your thoughts on characters serving as alter egos for real people (11 and year old Joseph), wouldn’t an extension of that thought put Joseph and at least four others in the vicinity of a real location somewhere?

Just some thoughts.
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Limnor »

I’m fascinated with the repeated mention of four persons. Sons of Mosiah and etc.
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Limnor »

Lastly, introducing Delmarva as a source location is somewhat inconsistent with a theory the Joseph wrote himself into the book.
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Shulem
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

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Limnor wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:16 am
1) I appreciate your persistence shulem

I am persistent, but even I have limitations. Dirty Harry said that a man has to know his limitations. I wonder if my welcome here on this board is about worn out. :?

Limnor wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:16 am
2) i’ve never seen anyone consider the environs around Kirtland as a possible location for the activity you’ve concentrated on

The environs of Kirtland is not something I had in mind. Perhaps the Heartland people do?

Limnor wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:16 am
3) the Chagrin River and hills near Kirtland could serve as Sidon and Zarahemla, and Mentor could be the Manti within the story

I’m of the opinion that Joseph Smith imagined Zarahemla being in Delmarva and used that map to develop his story.

Limnor wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:16 am
4) continuing with your thoughts on characters serving as alter egos for real people (11 and year old Joseph), wouldn’t an extension of that thought put Joseph and at least four others in the vicinity of a real location somewhere?

11 year old Joseph is in the Book of Mormon, see here:

Mormon at ages 11, 15, 24 is really Joseph Smith Jr., in disguise!
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Shulem »

Limnor wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:28 am
Lastly, introducing Delmarva as a source location is somewhat inconsistent with a theory the Joseph wrote himself into the book.

You are welcome to explain how.
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Limnor »

I am not of the opinion that you have worn out your welcome here. On the contrary, I sincerely appreciate your insights as extremely valuable.
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Re: River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

Post by Limnor »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:49 am
Limnor wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2023 12:28 am
Lastly, introducing Delmarva as a source location is somewhat inconsistent with a theory the Joseph wrote himself into the book.

You are welcome to explain how.
Well, I believe an explanation should be consistent. I think it more likely that Joseph visited Kirtland and wrote about his experience than using Delmarva as a source.
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