River Sidon War and Book of Mormon Blooper

[Limnor]

The 1005 reference could be just as you suggest.

[Shulem]

The 1005 reference could be just as you suggest.

Thanks for the generous response. I appreciate it.

Actually, if I were in Joseph’s position writing a Book of Mormon, I would have woven the 1,005 into my account and patted myself on the back for being so crafty. Smith and I are on the same page!

[Shulem]

Actually I think your observation about the river and the sea is interesting support of your map idea.

I simply observe what the text implies and place it on the map where it belongs. Can Daniel C. Peterson do that? No!

Take for example when Nephi was building his ship at the bay of Bountiful in preparation to sail to America. His brethren were angry with him and Nephi was alarmed and felt threatened, saying, “and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea.” What sea? The ocean!

After Nephi finished constructing his ship they set out to sea for the long voyage to America (number of days unspecified in second manuscript) and again Nephi’s brethren became upset with him and being abusive they tied their younger brother up. Nephi laments and worries about the Lord’s retribution saying “that we should be swallowed up in the depths of the sea.” The situation was so dire that Nephi exclaimed saying “we were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea!” What sea? The ocean!

Recall that on the peninsula of the promised land near the narrow neck that the Nephites engaged in expeditions on land and sea and launched ships out into the west sea in order to sail into the land northward. And on one such occasion it was said they never returned and “that they were never heard of more. And we suppose that they were drowned in the depths of the sea.” What sea? The ocean!

Recall how the coastal city of Moroni was built and that the very foundations “was by the east sea” and later after the crucifixion of Christ, “the city of Moroni did sink into the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof were drowned.” What sea? The ocean!

Lastly, recall how Jared and his brother were “as a whale in the midst of the sea; for the mountain waves” dashed upon them many times while crossing the great deep, nevertheless the Lord did bring them up again “out of the depths of the sea.” What sea? The ocean!

So, when we read about how the “Amlicites who had been slain upon the bank of the river Sidon were cast into the waters of Sidon; and behold their bones are in the depths of the sea,” we are assured that the sea *is* the ocean in which those bones lie because the current of the river Sidon carried the bodies of the Amlicites to sea where they were forever buried. What sea? The ocean!

Have I made my point?

[Shulem]

Have I made my point?

It’s easy to see how Joseph Smith imagined the Pocomoke river lead directly to the sea where the bones of the Amlicites would sink to the depths of the sea.

[Shulem]

Amlicites who had been slain upon the bank of the river Sidon were cast into the waters of Sidon; and behold their bones are in the depths of the sea:

[Shulem]

Consider the actions of another war that occurred at the river Sidon involving chief captain Moroni in Alma chapters 43 & 44:

Alma Joseph Smith makes no bones about repercussions of rotting bodies being thrown into the river because they would soon be at sea and not pose an environmental risk for Nephite civilization that depended on the bounty and resources of a clean river. Imagine throwing thousands of bodies into a river that extends for a great distance as it cuts through the landscape -- the ecological implications from the pollution is unthinkable! Responsible authorities who rule the land would never pollute the river system unless they were sure the bodies would be quickly washed down into the sea -- out of sight and out of mind.

21 Now the number of their dead was not numbered because of the greatness of the number; yea, the number of their dead was exceedingly great, both on the Nephites and on the Lamanites.

22 And it came to pass that they did cast their dead into the waters of Sidon, and they have gone forth and are buried in the depths of the  sea.

See how the Pocomoke river at the tale of Delmarva flows directly into the Chesapeake bay.




Have I made my point? What does this mean for the Heartland model? How about the Mesoamerican model?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I think you put a dagger into the heart of the Heartland model/theory. I'm not sure why John Hamer nor Dan Vogel can see what you've presented. It's so clear and more, it makes sense contextually for most of the Book of Mormon's setting.

As an aside, I forget, did you make the connection between the Gadianton robbers and Captain Kidd's pirates/piracy?

- Doc

[Shulem]

I think you put a dagger into the heart of the Heartland model/theory.

The river Sidon and bones at sea have absolutely nothing to do with the Heartland model/theory which is DOA. (Pun intended)

I'm not sure why John Hamer nor Dan Vogel can see what you've presented. It's so clear and more, it makes sense contextually for most of the Book of Mormon's setting.

Because people are locked into their way of thinking and want things to be as they believe they are. Dan Vogel is an incredible historian and is aware of so much more than I am from that point of view having studied the intricacies of historical sources. But he has a problem, HOUSTON, Vogel has a problem! What is that problem? He’s influenced by Pratt and the apparent lack of denial from Joseph Smith about a South American connection regarding Lehi’s landing. Vogel must let go of what Pratt said and consider the idea that Smith, early on, remained silent about modern locations for key places mapped out in his geographical exposé beginning with Lehi’s landing, City of Lehi-Nephi, Zarahemla, and Bountiful!

I don’t know what John Hamer’s problem is but he has one, that’s for sure.

As an aside, I forget, did you make the connection between the Gadianton robbers and Captain Kidd's pirates/piracy?

All in good time.

You’ll recall that I’ve thrown a couple of high cards on the table including the Ace of Clubs and the Ace of Diamonds.
Shall I throw another ace on the table and give Daniel C. Peterson and Brant Gardner heart attacks?

OMG, can they handle the truth? What will they do?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I await your masterstroke with baited breath, mon ami.

- Doc

[Moksha]

I think you put a dagger into the heart of the Heartland model/theory. I'm not sure why John Hamer nor Dan Vogel can see what you've presented. It's so clear and more, it makes sense contextually for most of the Book of Mormon's setting.

- Doc

New ideas take a while to assimilate. If the LDS apologists say the Nephites landed in Mexico, that is what Vogel goes with. Shulem is the latest star on the horizon so his ideas will take some time. Apologists will probably argue against the snout of Anubis being chiseled off and instead argue that Anubis was from regular and not Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics.