The CES Letter

[yellowstone123]

Yellowstone, I know little about courts of love except what I have read here. I think the idea is to set up guides to repent and return to the church for people who make mistakes. It makes sense to attend if you believe and are holding some hope to repent and return. For individual who no longer believe I think it makes sense to decline to attend and just propose resignation. I do not imagine that making a big fuss over it would accomplish much.

Repent and return. I'm not sure about that. Leaders definitely make mistakes and excommunication is not something to put forward for someone to later repent and return; like an LDS RM leader told me. They (The excommunicated) are not coming back. That's what he is hearing in meetings. Of course they are not coming back. Why would they when what they did would be treated so differently in another church and congregation.

But for Mormons is about power and fear. Just like polygamy.

It also can lead to PTSD symptoms: Losing jobs, no stable relationships, impulsiveness, outbursts to name a few. Give it time in 20 years and a thousand people who were excommunicated, not told they lost their blessings but went into deep details about their life, recorded on a real to real tape recorder by 16 old white men in the room will sue for mental distress and the fall out of that.

Do you know that it's likely that in the 80s the Bishop would hear a sexual sin and go speak to the stake president? Before long, 25 men and their spouses would know what happened.

Do you know that if a priest in the Catholic Church discloses a confession to anyone, even someone higher up, he will be excommunicated? They consider confession a sacrament.

[huckelberry]

Yellowstone, I guess it is not a surprise to think most excommunicated individuals never return. A whole variety of things could contribute to that. I also should realize that it is not a big surprise to think the official church description of excommunication is rose colored glass. There are ways it can be handled badly. I think I can take your comments to heart. I of course do not have real understanding of all of the difficulties you were facing at that time. It sounds like some contributed to your mistake and the way your mistake was handed simply hurt with no help. The thought of social services could help comes to mind but from what we hear of LDS recommended social services it is better if you were not connected up that way.

[yellowstone123]

Thank you for your thoughts huckleberry. They didn't know they were dealing with a broken fellow in his teenage years because the LDS church in in1980 only sought obedience to its leaders and bringing in income which missionaries do with converts. They were dealing from with a broken 19 year old because for the last six years I couldn't tell the truth. I know myself. I need to tell the truth but then I would sit out of the play.

You see the LDS church is like a play. If you have been in the play for four years and suddenly someone else takes over and you sit buy your mother noisy ned and missy motor mouth need to know the details from you. I at 62 could handle them quite well in fact it's a fantasy but not in adolescents where you have been in the play for many years and that's the plan.

But I can see your thoughtfulness in the responses and I thank you for them.

1) When I was excommunicated a couple things happened: 1) some people hinted that President Spenser Kimball was watching my case. They did not release me when they sent me home with mental illness that needed to be treated by a psychiatrist not the stake presidency who were business owners;

2) Once excommunicated the letter came to "all stake presidents" from President Kimball of the need to be patient with the youth of the church because of what they are facing today;

3) After they announced my excommunication in Priesthood, the Bishop said that they still wanted me to attend priesthood meeting which was unusual.

4) write after the announcement nosey Ned who was the only Mormon on our street called his wife Missy Motormouth to tell her the announcement at priesthood about my excommunication. It was the first Sunday after my excommunication and I told my mom I didn't want to go to Church. My mom still did not know. I called the Stake President and asked him to talk with my mom. She became very worried as my first court was formal probation. When she walked into the building next to the Stake Presidency rooms she was met with MissyMotormouth who said she was so sorry about Karl, and when my mom asked what what was wrong with her son, she said he's been excommunicated. This was before she met with the Stake President and first time she heard it. My dad had moved out and in with his new girlfriend and my mom basically wanted to cease to exist. She stayed in bed for months and took sick leave. Her only son came home from his mission and now was excommunicated. She's the greatest. I'm sorry I caused her the pain and suffering she went through.

5) The issue with LDS social services leaped out to me. I was referred to them by the stake and I went. The brand new guy I met with who had a newly minted Masters in Social Work from BYU was assigned to me. He made a lot of dumb moves, saying the wrong things about my sins but then it happened and a flew up a red flag and I stopped. I still remember him and his name. He said that he loved amusement parks. He wanted to take five young guys just like me he was counseling to an amusement park in northern L.A. County. I knew the park and the rides. It did out do Disney Land with its roller coasters. I think I had tried two semesters at community college and didn't get the required 2.0 average. I was out of school at the time of the counseling and just working. I would go on to major in psychology which I failed the first semester. But even though I didn't know much about psychology and ethics etc, the facts that he wanted to meet with me outside the office raised real read flags. I didn't show up to the next appointment and no one called, so that was the end.

[huckelberry]

Yellowstone your feeling are important enough I am cautious as to how to respond. I am sure however when the subject of Mormon excommunications comes up your mother will always be important in my mind.

[yellowstone123]

Yellowstone your feeling are important enough I am cautious as to how to respond. I am sure however when the subject of Mormon excommunications comes up your mother will always be important in my mind.

Thank you Huckleberry. You are very kind.

[Pyreaux]

Have YOU read the CES Letter, and I mean truly, madly, deeply read? If not, why not? If so, how has it affected YOUR faith, if at all? Have you truly pondered it?

The CES Letter shook my faith to its very foundation. I stopped taking the sacrament, I stopped turning up to SM until my wife made me, almost physically dragging me. And then I started going to the Catholic Church. I started taking their RCIA class and two years ago got baptized during Vigil Mass. my wife and DD came with me to show their support and a couple of PIMI Mormon friends did as well. One of them would later say to anyone who would listen that I joined because of a "psychotic break," and that he didn't feel the Spirit.

Anyway, I handed out slips of paper with CES Letter URL so that they could read the truth about Mormonism.

And yes, I believe that the CES Letter *is* scholarly because of how well that it is written and because of all the excellent points that it raises. I know that PIMI members here will call me a heathen and they will say I got deceived. I'll bet dollars to donuts that those people never spent a second reading it. I can't help that.

So, yes, the CES Letter changed my life and my wife has been casually reading it. I hope she follows me out the door. my wife has read a great deal of it. She's slowly starting to have doubts and the letter has helped her start to think for herself for once.

And again I say rejoice to those who have read it and to those who haven't, I would ask in all sincerity why?

I've seen videos breaking down the sections, I have not read it. I read other stuff he copied from, so I'm not wasting time on what looks to be rehashed trash. My knowledge of the Bible and the ancient Israel's royal cult prevents me from casually dismissing the LDS Temples and priests, that have ancient roots, in favor of lesser remnants such as the Roman Catholics, though I like that Catholics have a priesthood and sacred grounds. I don't care about someone's issues with translation methods, variant vision accounts, or disputed history over polygamy.

You are subjecting your wife to some dishonest tactics of the book, such as its Shotgun Argumentation, a bullet point list they blast at you to overwhelm. If you are asking your wife to addressed them, how can a good faith actor expect one person to take any time to address a CES Letter and double check its footnotes to see if he lies, because it takes more time and study to address it than it was to copy and paste it to begin with.

[bill4long]

Have YOU read the CES Letter, and I mean truly, madly, deeply read? If not, why not? If so, how has it affected YOUR faith, if at all? Have you truly pondered it?

I read it. Pondered it. It did not affect my faith one iota.

Not a tad.

Not a tidbit.

Not a flutter.

Not a pinch or a skosh.

Not even a soupçon!

Probably because I bailed out of Mormondom 40 years ago after I came to the conclusion the Book of Mormon is a fraud

[huckelberry]

Have YOU read the CES Letter, and I mean truly, madly, deeply read? If not, why not? If so, how has it affected YOUR faith, if at all? Have you truly pondered it?

The CES Letter shook my faith to its very foundation. I stopped taking the sacrament, I stopped turning up to SM until my wife made me, almost physically dragging me. And then I started going to the Catholic Church. I started taking their RCIA class and two years ago got baptized during Vigil Mass. my wife and DD came with me to show their support and a couple of PIMI Mormon friends did as well. One of them would later say to anyone who would listen that I joined because of a "psychotic break," and that he didn't feel the Spirit.

Anyway, I handed out slips of paper with CES Letter URL so that they could read the truth about Mormonism.

And yes, I believe that the CES Letter *is* scholarly because of how well that it is written and because of all the excellent points that it raises. I know that PIMI members here will call me a heathen and they will say I got deceived. I'll bet dollars to donuts that those people never spent a second reading it. I can't help that.

So, yes, the CES Letter changed my life and my wife has been casually reading it. I hope she follows me out the door. my wife has read a great deal of it. She's slowly starting to have doubts and the letter has helped her start to think for herself for once.

And again I say rejoice to those who have read it and to those who haven't, I would ask in all sincerity why?

I've seen videos breaking down the sections, I have not read it. I read other stuff he copied from, so I'm not wasting time on what looks to be rehashed trash. My knowledge of the Bible and the ancient Israel's royal cult prevents me from casually dismissing the LDS Temples and priests, that have ancient roots, in favor of lesser remnants such as the Roman Catholics, though I like that Catholics have a priesthood and sacred grounds. I don't care about someone's issues with translation methods, variant vision accounts, or disputed history over polygamy.

You are subjecting your wife to some dishonest tactics of the book, such as its Shotgun Argumentation, a bullet point list they blast at you to overwhelm. If you are asking your wife to addressed them, how can a good faith actor expect one person to take any time to address a CES Letter and double check its footnotes to see if he lies, because it takes more time and study to address it than it was to copy and paste it to begin with.

hello, Pyreaux
Welcome, there is more to this board than disputes but differences of views play a significant part.
I wonder if your view of this letter focuses upon minor points. Perhaps that is a drawback of the bullet points to overwhelm layout of the book I confess to not having read it.

I am puzzled why somebody would worry about translation methods, after all whatever works should be ok. What disputed history about polygamy? Well there could be details which are uncertain but the general history is clear.

Many people are aware that there are temples in the Bible. You might consider that there were people all over the world with temples. The design of the Biblical temple is like other temples for other(but perhaps culturally related) religions in the area. Of course that is not something wrong with Solomon's building. LDS temples are a bit different. That observation does not say if that difference matters. After all people all over the world of many faiths or beliefs have built temples.

[Moksha]

I've seen videos breaking down the sections, I have not read it.
You are subjecting your wife to some dishonest tactics of the book, such as its Shotgun Argumentation, a bullet point list they blast at you to overwhelm.

Are you talking about the Book of Mormon or the CES Letter? Hey, thanks for coming over from Mormon Dialogue and Discussions.

[Pyreaux]

hello, Pyreaux
Welcome, there is more to this board than disputes but differences of views play a significant part.
I wonder if your view of this letter focuses upon minor points. Perhaps that is a drawback of the bullet points to overwhelm layout of the book I confess to not having read it.

I am puzzled why somebody would worry about translation methods, after all whatever works should be ok. What disputed history about polygamy? Well there could be details which are uncertain but the general history is clear.

Many people are aware that there are temples in the Bible. You might consider that there were people all over the world with temples. The design of the Biblical temple is like other temples for other(but perhaps culturally related) religions in the area. Of course that is not something wrong with Solomon's building. LDS temples are a bit different. That observation does not say if that difference matters. After all people all over the world of many faiths or beliefs have built temples.

Yes, but it's just that not all Christian or Mormon sects have temples or the esoteric teaching at all, which is very important to me in understanding the Bible. I do believe Canaan, Egypt, Mesopotamia have direct links to ancient Israelite temple worship, as does the New Testament Christianity, Medieval fraternities and plays. I like the seer stone narrative, but there is so much bickering over pointless things; who wouldn't believe in magic if God told you so? Like watching Field of Dreams with my dad, he doesn't like it because "God wouldn't do that", while I say "I think God can do whatever he wants." God's a moral authority, swine to polygamy, bad one day, good another. I think most people are willing to believe the world is flat if God only told them so. Atheists pretending to have Godly-moral outrage over what Joseph Smith does. Really? Do they know what God would do to, or tolerate from, a prophet, as atheists? A bit disingenuous.