The CES Letter

[huckelberry]

hello, Pyreaux
Welcome, there is more to this board than disputes but differences of views play a significant part.
I wonder if your view of this letter focuses upon minor points. Perhaps that is a drawback of the bullet points to overwhelm layout of the book I confess to not having read it.

I am puzzled why somebody would worry about translation methods, after all whatever works should be ok. What disputed history about polygamy? Well there could be details which are uncertain but the general history is clear.

Many people are aware that there are temples in the Bible. You might consider that there were people all over the world with temples. The design of the Biblical temple is like other temples for other(but perhaps culturally related) religions in the area. Of course that is not something wrong with Solomon's building. LDS temples are a bit different. That observation does not say if that difference matters. After all people all over the world of many faiths or beliefs have built temples.

Yes, but it's just that not all Christian or Mormon sects have temples or the esoteric teaching at all, which is very important to me in understanding the Bible. I do believe Canaan, Egypt, Mesopotamia have direct links to ancient Israelite temple worship, as does the New Testament Christianity, Medieval fraternities and plays. I like the seer stone narrative, but there is so much bickering over pointless things; who wouldn't believe in magic if God told you so? Like watching Field of Dreams with my dad, he doesn't like it because "God wouldn't do that", while I say "I think God can do whatever he wants." God's a moral authority, swine to polygamy, bad one day, good another. I think most people are willing to believe the world is flat if God only told them so. Atheists pretending to have Godly-moral outrage over what Joseph Smith does. Really? Do they know what God would do to, or tolerate from, a prophet, as atheists? A bit disingenuous.

Pyreaux, you touch on several different subjects here. For understanding I am wondering what you think of as an esoteric teaching and how that clarifies the Bible. I think the esoteric Christian teachings can be found in Romans in the Bible.Of course there were other varieties of esoteric teachings flowing around the Mediterranean in those centuries.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Yellowstone your feeling are important enough I am cautious as to how to respond. I am sure however when the subject of Mormon excommunications comes up your mother will always be important in my mind.

Thank you Huckleberry. You are very kind.

I really appreciate you your story, too. It’s important posters share their experiences with the faith. You obviously didn’t deserve the treatment you received. Ridiculous.

- Doc

[yellowstone123]

Thank You, Doc. I appreciate it.

[Pyreaux]

Pyreaux, you touch on several different subjects here. For understanding I am wondering what you think of as an esoteric teaching and how that clarifies the Bible. I think the esoteric Christian teachings can be found in Romans in the Bible.Of course there were other varieties of esoteric teachings flowing around the Mediterranean in those centuries.

Nearly every Bible book is written by Temple Priests. Adam is depicted as a Royal Temple Priest, commissioned to multiply, to make more priests, and dominate the earth, via temple building. Eden is an arboreal shrine on a holy mountain, Adam spent his days tilling the ground, expanding the garden, fulfilling his commission/covenant. The Patriarchs are likewise commissioned by the Everlasting Covenant and proceeded to build up shrines that dotted the land, at any Edenic landmark. The Temple rites are detailed, but the Temple's theology is not in the Bible. Those were kept secret by the priests, oral tradition.

Jesus said he speaks in parables so that some people won’t understand what he's teaching (Mark 4:11–12), so even His own disciples do not understand who he is (Mark 4:41). Jesus is a Melchizedek Temple High Priest sent to mend the Everlasting Covenant, and was a keeper of temple secrets he'd only teach to his inner circle: “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables," (Mark 4:11)

The Apostles, as Christ's fellow Temple Priests, were guardians of sacred teachings which they shared, but only to the mature, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew."

The "perfect" here means mature, full grown, as opposed to babes or children. Not publicly preached to the world, but secret. The "mysteries" (musterion) a word for initiation into secret rites, and the wisdom that is "hidden" (apocryphi) a word for secret teachings given only to the initiated.

There are still things in the gospel that the proverbial "dogs" (outer circle, outsiders) and "swine" (base, unclean) won't understand, such are "pearls" of wisdom (sacred/secret teachings) that are to be kept, its not for their ears, it will only do them spiritual harm. They will reject it, unless they have a proper foundation laid. Paul only preached a portion of the gospel according to a proverbial "milk" that is easy for the newbie-babies to digest, and not "meat" that would be hard for them to digest. Paul kept many mysteries from even the Jewish-Christians, both circumcised and baptized, who still remained outside the most inner circle and treated as babies, as it was important to fully ingested the milk-doctrines of faith, repentance, baptism, laying on of hands, resurrection and judgment (Heb 5:12-6:2).

Those claiming to be "Christians", but have nothing to teach beyond these basics and have no esoteric teachings, are (to me) not a true expression of original Christianity as I understand it. A shallow imitation at best if they teach nothing that might be beyond the understanding of the unintelligent and the wicked.

[bill4long]

Adam is depicted as a Royal Temple Priest, commissioned to multiply, to make more priests, and dominate the earth

Where does the Hebrew Bible indicate this?

[huckelberry]

Adam is depicted as a Royal Temple Priest, commissioned to multiply, to make more priests, and dominate the earth

What does the Hebrew Bible indicate this?

I do not know the source for that image for sure but I would suspect Masonic teachings as likely source.There is enough variety of Jewish expansion and reflection on the stories that there could be sources there as well.

Maybe I should let Pyreaux indicate his source.

[huckelberry]

....... The Temple rites are detailed, but the Temple's theology is not in the Bible. Those were kept secret by the priests, oral tradition.

Jesus said he speaks in parables so that some people won’t understand what he's teaching (Mark 4:11–12), so even His own disciples do not understand who he is (Mark 4:41). Jesus is a Melchizedek Temple High Priest sent to mend the Everlasting Covenant, and was a keeper of temple secrets he'd only teach to his inner circle: “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables," (Mark 4:11)

The Apostles, as Christ's fellow Temple Priests, were guardians of sacred teachings which they shared, but only to the mature, "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew."

The "perfect" here means mature, full grown, as opposed to babes or children. Not publicly preached to the world, but secret. The "mysteries" (musterion) a word for initiation into secret rites, and the wisdom that is "hidden" (apocryphi) a word for secret teachings given only to the initiated.

There are still things in the gospel that the proverbial "dogs" (outer circle, outsiders) and "swine" (base, unclean) won't understand, such are "pearls" of wisdom (sacred/secret teachings) that are to be kept, its not for their ears, it will only do them spiritual harm. They will reject it, unless they have a proper foundation laid. Paul only preached a portion of the gospel according to a proverbial "milk" that is easy for the newbie-babies to digest, and not "meat" that would be hard for them to digest. Paul kept many mysteries from even the Jewish-Christians, both circumcised and baptized, who still remained outside the most inner circle and treated as babies, as it was important to fully ingested the milk-doctrines of faith, repentance, baptism, laying on of hands, resurrection and judgment (Heb 5:12-6:2).

Those claiming to be "Christians", but have nothing to teach beyond these basics and have no esoteric teachings, are (to me) not a true expression of original Christianity as I understand it. A shallow imitation at best if they teach nothing that might be beyond the understanding of the unintelligent and the wicked.

Pyreaux, you started me thinking about hidden or deeper teachings
John15;5 I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in me and I in him he it is that bears much fruit. If a man abides not in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers........
As the Father has loved me so have loved you, abide in my love. If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love just as I have kept my Fathers commandments and abide in his love. ...This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.

There is 1Corintheans Paul is addressing people dividing the congregation into political factions. He speaks of a spiritual knowledge beyond the basic doctrines. That knowledge is living in the New spirit of a new birth in Jesus , shared with Jesus.

This is discussed in the New Testament in a variety of ways and places. I like Romans 8;18 I consider that the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope. because the creation will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I have at times puzzled over that passage in Mark about parables. It seems a puzzle because the parables are not difficult or hidden. clearly the parables are an outer message and another inner message is being shared selectively. In Mark who Jesus is and what he is doing is a secret but one Mark is careful to give clues and pointer about. He is leading his readers on to look for the inner message.

I found myself thinking of a youtube snippet from Bart Ehrman debating Jesus claims. It is commonplace observation that in Mark and the other synoptic gospels Jesus speaks as a prophet not divine yet in John Jesus speaks differently. One can understand that as in John we hear the inner message while Mark focuses on that outer message. Bart Ehrman would think that inner message a creation of followers after Jesus death. I am enough of a traditional believer that I can see that inner hidden message as coming from Jesus.

[Pyreaux]

Adam is depicted as a Royal Temple Priest, commissioned to multiply, to make more priests, and dominate the earth

Where does the Hebrew Bible indicate this?

Priestly Apotheosis is a reoccurring theme in the Bible, including Genesis. While not obvious in English, those familiar with the Hebrew language used in Genesis and compared to language elsewhere in the Bible, leads one to conclude that Adam is a King-Priest. Jewish Rabbis know and observed that the language in the statement that Adam was in the “image [selem (H#6754) image (as a statue), likeness (as resemblance)] of God”, should be understood to somehow mean that Adam is a King (Midrash Rabbah Genesis 17:14). I say "somehow", as Rabbis fail to fully explain how they know that, I shall tell. In an ancient near-eastern historical context, this was universal common language for the practice of ancient priest-kings in the Near East to dress their kings in the garb of their god and put them in a temple as living images of their god.

Thus, note the setting, Eden is one of many countries, and to the east was planted the arboreal temple of Eden, and four rivers flow downhill in four directions, as the Garden is on an elevation (Genesis 2:10–14). As Ezekiel describes it the “sanctuary” in the “garden of Eden” at the summit of the “mountain of God” (Ezekiel 28:13-14, 18). Temple imagery, like the Temple in Jerusalem, are artificial recreations of the features of the Garden of Eden, the model for all future temples. Adam was not made in the Garden, but was made in God's image outside the garden. Then God “put ['sum (H#7760)]” Adam into the garden. This “put” is not a typical word, it is used to describe Temple furniture (2 Chronicles 4:8), and Temple images (1 Kings 17:29; Zech 5:5-11) they are “putting” these items in a temple because a temple is this verb turned into a noun, a Temple is a “rest [or putting place]” (Psalm 132:7-8, 14; Isaiah 66:1).

God then tasked Adam to “dress [abad (H#5647)]” and “keep [shamar (H#8104)]” it (Genesis 2:15). These are all words repeatedly used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to a Priest's temple service and upkeep of temple instruments (Numbers 3:7-8). So those who know the Hebrew language, Adam was commissioned with tasks that have priestly connotations. In the New Testament, Adam was considered a son “of God” (Luke 3:38; Genesis 1:26; 2:15). This is also a common mark of future Royal Temple Priests.

I have more details.

[Pyreaux]

Pyreaux, you started me thinking about hidden or deeper teachings
John15;5 I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in me and I in him he it is that bears much fruit. If a man abides not in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers........
As the Father has loved me so have loved you, abide in my love. If you keep my commandments you will abide in my love just as I have kept my Fathers commandments and abide in his love. ...This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.

There is 1 Corintheans Paul is addressing people dividing the congregation into political factions. He speaks of a spiritual knowledge beyond the basic doctrines. That knowledge is living in the New spirit of a new birth in Jesus , shared with Jesus.

This is discussed in the New Testament in a variety of ways and places. I like Romans 8;18 I consider that the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of him who subjected it in hope. because the creation will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the glorious liberty of the children of God.

I have at times puzzled over that passage in Mark about parables. It seems a puzzle because the parables are not difficult or hidden. clearly the parables are an outer message and another inner message is being shared selectively. In Mark who Jesus is and what he is doing is a secret but one Mark is careful to give clues and pointer about. He is leading his readers on to look for the inner message.

I found myself thinking of a youtube snippet from Bart Ehrman debating Jesus claims. It is commonplace observation that in Mark and the other synoptic gospels Jesus speaks as a prophet not divine yet in John Jesus speaks differently. One can understand that as in John we hear the inner message while Mark focuses on that outer message. Bart Ehrman would think that inner message a creation of followers after Jesus death. I am enough of a traditional believer that I can see that inner hidden message as coming from Jesus.

Parables were teachings for initiates, not common people, so "without a parable he spake not unto them" (Mk 4:34). It appeared to be just a story to hide its true meaning, so "by seeing they see not" (Mt 13.13-15; Mk 4:12; Lk 8:10). As a Melchizedek High Priest, Christ was charged with keeping temple secrets, and could only divulge them to those similarly initiated into the priesthood themselves. They should understand parable themes like death, death is a theme in the initiations (initiation is from the Latin for: the deaths). The parables have certain themes about the hereafter, or as well as information of the near future or past.

Sometimes a parable is an exposition about the temple initiation rites themselves, such as the parable of the Prodigal Son. All Christians, whether they know it or not, are aspiring to be initiated royal Melchizedek priests, and the royal road is like the Prodigal Son. The priesthood was the method in which mortals prepared themselves to enter the temple and meet God and survive in their priestly duties in the Temple. Likewise, the Christians wish be initiated in rebirth rituals in order to enter the kingdom of God.

[huckelberry]

Where does the Hebrew Bible indicate this?

Priestly Apotheosis is a reoccurring theme in the Bible, including Genesis. While not obvious in English, those familiar with the Hebrew language used in Genesis and compared to language elsewhere in the Bible, leads one to conclude that Adam is a King-Priest. Jewish Rabbis know and observed that the language in the statement that Adam was in the “image [selem (H#6754) image (as a statue), likeness (as resemblance)] of God”, should be understood to somehow mean that Adam is a King (Midrash Rabbah Genesis 17:14). I say "somehow", as Rabbis fail to fully explain how they know that, I shall tell. In an ancient near-eastern historical context, this was universal common language for the practice of ancient priest-kings in the Near East to dress their kings in the garb of their god and put them in a temple as living images of their god.

Thus, note the setting, Eden is one of many countries, and to the east was planted the arboreal temple of Eden, and four rivers flow downhill in four directions, as the Garden is on an elevation (Genesis 2:10–14). As Ezekiel describes it the “sanctuary” in the “garden of Eden” at the summit of the “mountain of God” (Ezekiel 28:13-14, 18). Temple imagery, like the Temple in Jerusalem, are artificial recreations of the features of the Garden of Eden, the model for all future temples. Adam was not made in the Garden, but was made in God's image outside the garden. Then God “put ['sum (H#7760)]” Adam into the garden. This “put” is not a typical word, it is used to describe Temple furniture (2 Chronicles 4:8), and Temple images (1 Kings 17:29; Zech 5:5-11) they are “putting” these items in a temple because a temple is this verb turned into a noun, a Temple is a “rest [or putting place]” (Psalm 132:7-8, 14; Isaiah 66:1).

God then tasked Adam to “dress [abad (H#5647)]” and “keep [shamar (H#8104)]” it (Genesis 2:15). These are all words repeatedly used elsewhere in the Bible to refer to a Priest's temple service and upkeep of temple instruments (Numbers 3:7-8). So those who know the Hebrew language, Adam was commissioned with tasks that have priestly connotations. In the New Testament, Adam was considered a son “of God” (Luke 3:38; Genesis 1:26; 2:15). This is also a common mark of future Royal Temple Priests.

I have more details.

Pereaux, I can see it as clear that temple and Eden are deeply interrelated shedding meaning on each other.
A brief on line check of articles shows some scholars making observations of the relationship but fussing over the matter of identity. I thought that was an obvious question. With or without identity there can be important shared things about Eden and temples. Still just what qualifies or does not qualify as temple is a relevant question. Are Catholic cathedrals temples? Many Jews refer to their synagogue as temple.For Christians the relevant rebirth rituals are performed in Cathedrals and other places of worship, are they temples? God is present.