The CES Letter

[nowacatholic]

Let's see if we can do this thing and still keep in harmony with the rules of the Celestial Forum.

Have YOU read the CES Letter, and I mean truly, madly, deeply read? If not, why not? If so, how has it affected YOUR faith, if at all? Have you truly pondered it?

The CES Letter shook my faith to its very foundation. I stopped taking the sacrament, I stopped turning up to SM until my wife made me, almost physically dragging me. And then I started going to the Catholic Church. I started taking their RCIA class and two years ago got baptized during Vigil Mass. my wife and DD came with me to show their support and a couple of PIMI Mormon friends did as well. One of them would later say to anyone who would listen that I joined because of a "psychotic break," and that he didn't feel the Spirit.

Anyway, I handed out slips of paper with CES Letter URL so that they could read the truth about Mormonism.

And yes, I believe that the CES Letter *is* scholarly because of how well that it is written and because of all the excellent points that it raises. I know that PIMI members here will call me a heathen and they will say I got deceived. I'll bet dollars to donuts that those people never spent a second reading it. I can't help that.

So, yes, the CES Letter changed my life and my wife has been casually reading it. I hope she follows me out the door. my wife has read a great deal of it. She's slowly starting to have doubts and the letter has helped her start to think for herself for once.

And again I say rejoice to those who have read it and to those who haven't, I would ask in all sincerity why?

[huckelberry]

I am an older fellow who left the church decades before the creation of the CES letter. My sister who stayed in the church and went on a mission told me not long ago that she had read the CES letter and was doing serious reevaluation of her beliefs. I wish her well no matter which way her reevaluation goes as long as it avoid despair and chaos. She is old enough she should be able to avoid that.

[nowacatholic]

I am an older fellow who left the church decades before the creation of the CES letter. My sister who stayed in the church and went on a mission told me not long ago that she had read the CES letter and was doing serious reevaluation of her beliefs. I wish her well no matter which way her reevaluation goes as long as it avoid despair and chaos. She is old enough she should be able to avoid that.

Good, good. As long as the CES Letter is giving people pause, then it's doing its job. Of course it makes me happy when people leave because of it, and it amuses me when people stay put. I sent a link to the CES Letter today to the branch president turned bishop and the stake president. And now I wait.

[Moksha]

The FAIR refutations to the CES letter are all hot air without data. Mormons feel that they can bluff and bluster their way through any argument with mere sophistry. The idea that you can defend made-up stories with bald-faced lies is folly.

[pimomormon]

Let's see if we can do this thing and still keep in harmony with the rules of the Celestial Forum.

Have YOU read the CES Letter, and I mean truly, madly, deeply read? If not, why not? If so, how has it affected YOUR faith, if at all? Have you truly pondered it?

The CES Letter shook my faith to its very foundation. I stopped taking the sacrament, I stopped turning up to SM until my wife made me, almost physically dragging me. And then I started going to the Catholic Church. I started taking their RCIA class and two years ago got baptized during Vigil Mass. my wife and DD came with me to show their support and a couple of PIMI Mormon friends did as well. One of them would later say to anyone who would listen that I joined because of a "psychotic break," and that he didn't feel the Spirit.

Anyway, I handed out slips of paper with CES Letter URL so that they could read the truth about Mormonism.

And yes, I believe that the CES Letter *is* scholarly because of how well that it is written and because of all the excellent points that it raises. I know that PIMI members here will call me a heathen and they will say I got deceived. I'll bet dollars to donuts that those people never spent a second reading it. I can't help that.

So, yes, the CES Letter changed my life and my wife has been casually reading it. I hope she follows me out the door. my wife has read a great deal of it. She's slowly starting to have doubts and the letter has helped her start to think for herself for once.

And again I say rejoice to those who have read it and to those who haven't, I would ask in all sincerity why?

Everyone needs a crutch of some sort and for millions of unfortunate people, Mormonism is that crutch. I mean, surely people don't REALLY believe in what they're teaching! Right? Right?

[huckelberry]

Let's see if we can do this thing and still keep in harmony with the rules of the Celestial Forum.

Have YOU read the CES Letter, and I mean truly, madly, deeply read? If not, why not? If so, how has it affected YOUR faith, if at all? Have you truly pondered it?

The CES Letter shook my faith to its very foundation. I stopped taking the sacrament, I stopped turning up to SM until my wife made me, almost physically dragging me. And then I started going to the Catholic Church. I started taking their RCIA class and two years ago got baptized during Vigil Mass. my wife and DD came with me to show their support and a couple of PIMI Mormon friends did as well. One of them would later say to anyone who would listen that I joined because of a "psychotic break," and that he didn't feel the Spirit.

Anyway, I handed out slips of paper with CES Letter URL so that they could read the truth about Mormonism.

And yes, I believe that the CES Letter *is* scholarly because of how well that it is written and because of all the excellent points that it raises. I know that PIMI members here will call me a heathen and they will say I got deceived. I'll bet dollars to donuts that those people never spent a second reading it. I can't help that.

So, yes, the CES Letter changed my life and my wife has been casually reading it. I hope she follows me out the door. my wife has read a great deal of it. She's slowly starting to have doubts and the letter has helped her start to think for herself for once.

And again I say rejoice to those who have read it and to those who haven't, I would ask in all sincerity why?

Everyone needs a crutch of some sort and for millions of unfortunate people, Mormonism is that crutch. I mean, surely people don't REALLY believe in what they're teaching! Right? Right?

Pimomormon, welcome.

I think people can present a variety. Surely there are people who go along without really believing, but to my awareness many Mormons truly believe and find doubt foreign. Of course, there are some who have a mix of doubt and belief.

I am a bit curious; are you a person who has never been Mormon and puzzled how people could believe such dubious stuff? Or are you LDS or post LDS and still experiencing shock over the realization of just how large the reasons not to believe are? One can wonder how the strength of belief persists for some people. I can think of intelligent and curious individuals who believe.

[yellowstone123]

I read part of it. It didn't seem to bring up anything I hadn't already read. But the key to me is the author, and truthfulness, not of the so-called letter but all over truthfulness.

I was sort of keeping tabs on the situation and they wanted to convey a court of love for jeremy. But Jeremy said he couldn't make it because he had a family member in hospice. I read this on the web. I thought they should delay it because of this. Then the same week John D. has Jeremy on a live stream broadcast about his newsletter. Both were laughing and happy and I thought what about the sick family member. Shouldn't you be there at the hospice and not at this live stream broadcast.

Both lost credibility to me for that.

I believe each knows a lot about the early church and John D. knows a lot about the early and present church but pulling the sick family member card and then going on a broadcast was just sickening to me.

Jeremy and John go to your courts and stop making it a public event.

I came home from my mission early in 1980, made mistakes after I got home, confessed, showed up to both courts and was excommunicated.

[huckelberry]

I read part of it. It didn't seem to bring up anything I hadn't already read. But the key to me is the author, and truthfulness, not of the so-called letter but all over truthfulness.

I was sort of keeping tabs on the situation and they wanted to convey a court of love for jeremy. But Jeremy said he couldn't make it because he had a family member in hospice. I read this on the web. I thought they should delay it because of this. Then the same week John D. has Jeremy on a live stream broadcast about his newsletter. Both were laughing and happy and I thought what about the sick family member. Shouldn't you be there at the hospice and not at this live stream broadcast.

Both lost credibility to me for that.

I believe each knows a lot about the early church and John D. knows a lot about the early and present church but pulling the sick family member card and then going on a broadcast was just sickening to me.

Jeremy and John go to your courts and stop making it a public event.

I came home from my mission early in 1980, made mistakes after I got home, confessed, showed up to both courts and was excommunicated.

Yellowstone, I know little about courts of love except what I have read here. I think the idea is to set up guides to repent and return to the church for people who make mistakes. It makes sense to attend if you believe and are holding some hope to repent and return. For individual who no longer believe I think it makes sense to decline to attend and just propose resignation. I do not imagine that making a big fuss over it would accomplish much.

[yellowstone123]

I read part of it. It didn't seem to bring up anything I hadn't already read. But the key to me is the author, and truthfulness, not of the so-called letter but all over truthfulness.

I was sort of keeping tabs on the situation and they wanted to convey a court of love for jeremy. But Jeremy said he couldn't make it because he had a family member in hospice. I read this on the web. I thought they should delay it because of this. Then the same week John D. has Jeremy on a live stream broadcast about his newsletter. Both were laughing and happy and I thought what about the sick family member. Shouldn't you be there at the hospice and not at this live stream broadcast.

Both lost credibility to me for that.

I believe each knows a lot about the early church and John D. knows a lot about the early and present church but pulling the sick family member card and then going on a broadcast was just sickening to me.

Jeremy and John go to your courts and stop making it a public event.

I came home from my mission early in 1980, made mistakes after I got home, confessed, showed up to both courts and was excommunicated.

Yellowstone, I know little about courts of love except what I have read here. I think the idea is to set up guides to repent and return to the church for people who make mistakes. It makes sense to attend if you believe and are holding some hope to repent and return. For individual who no longer believe I think it makes sense to decline to attend and just propose resignation. I do not imagine that making a big fuss over it would accomplish much.

Sorry, I don’t believe what you wrote. The history of the stake presidency excommunicating people far out weighs what the sin is and some stake presidency just like to excommunicate.

Just my experience from the 70s and 80s and too many to count. Just one: an endowed RM from BYU confesses during the summer and nothing is done regarding frequent oral sex with his girlfriend at BYU the previous year. He’s from the east coast and she’s from the west coast. She confesses which brings a bishops court and disfellowshipment. She can’t return to the fall semester while he does. The history helps predict what will happen.

After I was excommunicated, the bishop called me into his office. He knew the process was taking its toll on me mentally as I spiraled downward. He showed me a letter by President Kimball that basically said the youth of today are experiencing temptations that no other youth had experienced before and it was important for a stake presidency to be patient. This was a couple months after my excommunication and Salt Lake thought I was back in Northern Ohio giving discussions on the apostasy.

[huckelberry]

Yellowstone, I know little about courts of love except what I have read here. I think the idea is to set up guides to repent and return to the church for people who make mistakes. It makes sense to attend if you believe and are holding some hope to repent and return. For individual who no longer believe I think it makes sense to decline to attend and just propose resignation. I do not imagine that making a big fuss over it would accomplish much.

Sorry, I don’t believe what you wrote. The history of the stake presidency excommunicating people far out weighs what the sin is and some stake presidency just like to excommunicate.

Just my experience from the 70s and 80s and too many to count. Just one: an endowed RM from BYU confesses during the summer and nothing is done regarding frequent oral sex with his girlfriend at BYU the previous year. He’s from the east coast and she’s from the west coast. She confesses which brings a bishops court and disfellowshipment. She can’t return to the fall semester while he does. The history helps predict what will happen.

After I was excommunicated, the bishop called me into his office. He knew the process was taking its toll on me mentally as I spiraled downward. He showed me a letter by President Kimball that basically said the youth of today are experiencing temptations that no other youth had experienced before and it was important for a stake presidency to be patient. This was a couple months after my excommunication and Salt Lake thought I was back in Northern Ohio giving discussions on the apostasy.

yellowstone, I did not say anything about excommunications being justified or a good thing. I am confused as to what you do not believe about my comments.

Yellowstone, perhaps to clarify, I do not understand why Jeremy should go to a church court. Why do you see it as an obligation he is shirking? One might remember that hospice is care given to a person, it often goes on for many months so doing a podcast is no surprise or shirking of duty. I suppose that makes Jeremy's excuse thin but I think whether he goes to a church court is a choice up to him.