Mormonism as Christianity- a proof from an outside perpsective

[moarbarmu]

Dear Mormons,

I am a Catholic. I have long believed and still do, that Mormons are Christians and that those who say that Mormons are not Christians are being unnecessarily cruel. However, I could not figure out a way to prove it until now. I know that your self-worth is not defined by validation from the outside, but I thought that I would show the proof so that the next time some evangelical who knows no theology gives you a hard time, you can surprise that person in a polite, but firm way.

First, what is a Christian?

A Christian is someone who believes in 1. one God, 2, who is the biblical God of Israel, Yahweh, and that 3. Jesus is God. That is all that is required. The Nicene Creed or Trinitarianism, while nice for Catholics, is not required to be Christian. So, let us start the proof, shall we?
I start with the easiest criterion first. Mormons believe in Yahweh, the biblical God of Israel. That is, or should be, uncontested. So, that is one point for Mormonism (we need three; the number three was not chosen as some-weird Trinitarian dig, I apologize if you thought that).
Secondly, Mormons believe Jesus to be God; however to fully defend that, we need to look at number 1. When I say that I believe in one God as a Catholic, I mean that there is one being with a one ousia (translated confusingly as substance or essence) in three persons. However, that is not the only way to view the oneness of God. I argue that Mormons use terminology that sounds problematic but they actually mean, while radically different from what a Catholic would mean, still clearly qualifies as Christian.

Let us admit the obvious- Joseph Smith was not a classically-trained theologian. He did not understand ousia. Ironically, he talks about translation errors and the main reason that people believe Mormons to be polytheists is due to a translation error! But, seriously, ousia does not have to be so scary for Mormons. Yes, you would never agree to Nicene doctrine as currently understood. But one ousia does not necessarily translate to what you or Joseph Smith thought that it meant. Rather than translate it to substance/being/essence, I will explain that it can mean two main things, but these two things are separable.

Ousia can mean an individual being or the nature that unified individual beings. In Catholicism, we equate these two senses of ousia, but there is no strict logical reason to have to link the two. My argument is that Mormonism de-links the two senses of the word ousia, which is entirely acceptable Christian logic, but not Nicene. Hear me out.

In Mormonism, one God exists, not three, because the three beings, as opposed to mere persons as in Catholicism, are united in purpose, action, and will (if I am getting the terminology wrong, please correct me). Now, the use of the term will is interesting and helps Mormons out a lot. Again, Joseph Smith was not a traditional theologian, which is fine (neither was Jesus). However, the upshot of this is that he did not know about the Christological debate about the will of Jesus. Most Nicenes, like Catholics, most Protestants, and the Eastern Orthodox, do not believe that God has one will, because Jesus has two wills. However, Monophysites (literally people who believe in one nature) also profess Monothelitism, a belief in one will.

Now, I interpret Mormons as being dyophysite (that is Jesus is fully human and fully divine, according to them), but Monothelite. This was a major position within Nicene Christianity for a long time. The reason why this is so interesting is because Monothelitism has a stricter unity of God than say Catholicism. This is very important. The attacks of Mormonism in terms of it being Christian stem from accusations of Mormonism being polytheistic. However, Mormons in one area are stricter Monotheists than I am. Overall, you guys are looser Monotheists, but the fact that in one area or aspect, you are actually stricter than Catholics really helps you. You believe that God, including the three beings that we call persons, has one will. God has one will, you say, in the singular. He has one will despite being three beings. I would call that a Mormon Trinity in the Godhead, though very different from a Nicene Trinity. Instead of three persons in one being, you would have three beings in one God, unified by one will.
Going back to ousia, there is a sense of it as being a nature that binds individuals together and the Mormon Godhead clearly has that property. In that sense you have one entity, in the sense that humanity is one entity, but God despite having one of what I would call substance is made up of three individual beings, two of which have physical bodies according to Mormonism. This view of Monotheism is similar to, but distinct from Hinduism, which is also monotheistic in a looser sense than in Nicene Christianity.

So, going back to our three criteria for Christianity, Mormons believe in one God, who is the God of Israel, Yahweh, at least in part, but who is also composed of two other separate divine beings. Jesus and the Holy Spirit (which you call the Holy Ghost) are also part of God. Thus, Jesus is God and thus Mormons meet the definition of Christians!

One last note- the analogy that I would use- and Catholics love their analogies- is the Portuguese Man-o-War (please forgive the comparison). The Portuguese Man-o-War is one entity but not one being or individual, but many individuals that share, essentially, one will. Yet, while technically a colonial creature (that is a technical biological term- I am a zoology nerd, sorry), for all intents and purposes, it acts like a single individual. We refer to Portuguese Men-o-War in the single more than the plural, despite being a plural being in a sense. In other words, the Mormon God is similar. He is a single Godhead or God composed of separate individual divine beings that are for all practical purposes, inseparable.It is not my monotheism, but it is clearly a form of monotheism, and thus of Christianity.

In conclusion, this is my proof of Mormonism being part of Christianity. I hope that I was at least entertaining and I apologize in advance for offending anyone. However, the next time that an evangelical challenges your Christianity, you might want to bring this argument up and shut down the hate from the other side. Most evangelicals know little to nothing about theology. Have fun with this argument, even if you do not believe that I have solved the equation.

Post-script-
My motives for this proof are two-fold. As a Catholic, evangelicals have bullied me as well and even though I reply that my people were the original Christians, I have to defend my Christianity with them and it is annoying. I feel a lot of empathy for you guys, who get bullied evangelicals a lot. My second motive is also to define Christianity in a non-subjective way which allows us to define our religion with analytical accuracy and not rely on "self-identification". I believe that not all "Christian" groups are Christian. I analyzed three with the above criteria and two passed and one failed. Mormonism and Rastafarianism (believe or not) both passed, bur the Jehovah's Witnesses are simply not analytically Christians by the above quite-generous definition. Quite simply-put, Mormons, Rastafarians (most of them at least) and Nicenes all view Jesus as God, but Jehovah's Witnesses do not. That is the big definitional divide between Christians and similar, but non-Christian faiths, such as Islam and Jehovah's Witnesses. It is not a normative divide, just an analytical one.

Now, normatively, I believe that all believers in an organized religion other than my faith are equal and I of course like my faith better or else I would be a different faith. However, my point is that all Christians who are not Catholic are normatively equal, even if they are analytically different. More fundamentally, no one, not even Catholics, should be cruel to other Christians, other believers in organized religion, other believers, or anyone else at all.

Sincerely,
Dr. Christopher Binetti

I can be reached at cbinetti@terpmail.umd.edu if you want to talk to me personally about this or anything else. Hang in there guys! The unfair criticism of you guys is hard to take, but persevere in your faith in God!

[Physics Guy]

Hi, and welcome!

Although these boards are dedicated to discussing Mormonism, most people here are not currently Mormon. Many are former Mormons, but some have never been Mormon. A few who have left the LDS church still retain some appreciation of Mormonism as a broader movement, and these, as well as the one or two practicing Mormons, may welcome your thinking. A few of the non-Mormons here may also be interested in Trinitarian theology, and might or might not find your proposal persuasive. The great majority of the regular posters here, however, will probably just find this whole discussion bizarre.

Have you considered posting on the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board? The regular posters there are mostly actual Mormons, plus I think there is at least one Catholic there who might agree with you.

I am one of the never-Mormons here, but I do happen to be interested in Trinitarian theology, though I am not Catholic. One thing that you might not know about Mormon theology is that Mormons teach that Jesus is Jehovah while the Father is Elohim. I'm not sure whether there is an official Mormon position on how to transliterate the Tetragrammaton, but "Jehovah" rather than "Yahweh" is used in Mormon liturgy and hymnody.

To me this means that, whether or not Mormon theology can count as a non-Nicene Christianity, no rabbi would acknowledge Mormonism as believing in the one God of the Jewish Bible. The Mormon approach to this problem—at least, the approach of Mormon apologists, if not of the LDS church authorities—seems to be to argue that the Old Testament really is polytheistic and that the later Jewish insistence on monotheism was some kind of error.

Also, although Mormons do not often emphasize this nowadays, they still do seem to have this teaching of their Prophet-President Lorenzo Snow on the books:

As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be.

So the number of distinct beings who count as God in Mormonism is not merely three, but unlimited. Even Elohim presumably worshipped and obeyed a higher God, back when Elohim was a man, and there is no telling how many Gods there may be.

So although your proposal is interesting, that unity of will may count as Trinity even if it is not unity of substance, I'm afraid that I don't think that Mormonism will quite fit into the space that you want to create for it within Christianity. Mormons just do not really believe in one God.

At least, they don't unless one allows "God" to mean a kind of club of indeterminately many exalted beings who are united in will. And I think that most Christians would only agree with your three-point definition of Christianity because they understand its mention of "God" to refer to a more traditionally Judaeo-Christian-Islamic God than that. To get people to agree to the three-point definition of Christianity, but then interpret "God" to include the Mormon group-with-one-will, seems like a bait-and-switch fallacy.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Welcome, Dr. Binetti! I would second what Physics Guy said about the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board.

There are a couple of Mormon boards that you might want to avoid. Specifically, I would stay away from LDSfreedomforum. It can be pretty hostile, and its participants are mostly far right/survivalist Mormons.

[Moksha]

A couple of decades back, there was a professor at BYU who was professing an exuberant (and fairly orthodox) belief in Jesus. This riled a rather bullying LDS apostle, who had a rather disparaging view of Orthodox Christians. He viewed Jesus as the weak link in the LDS Godhead. Celebrating Jesus was something this apostle wanted to stamp out and replace it with a God-driven worship rather than one that looked to place any emphasis on Jesus. This apostle had the power to terminate the professor's employment, and so the professor was forced to publicly confess his errors and retract his views on Jesus.

Does this sound similar to Christianity as you know it?

Interesting conversations on this topic may be found here: https://www.mormondialogue.org/

Currently, the LDS Church is undergoing a significant revision in both its history and doctrines, so I think they would be delighted to hear from you.

The pro-Jesus professor was Eugene England and the bullying apostle was Bruce R. McConkie.

https://www.google.com/search?q=eugene+ ... e&ie=UTF-8

https://www.eugeneengland.org/a-profess ... ure-of-god

[I Have Questions]

In response to the OP. Hi Christopher. Mormons claim that Christianity is corrupt and that they, and only they, offer a true reflection of Christ’s church. They play at being part of Christianity when it suits them (the enemy of my enemy is my friend, sort of thing) but when push comes to shove, Mormons believe only Mormons will live in “heaven” and everyone else will have to make do with something lesser. They want to speak out of both sides of their mouths on this debate. I suspect Catholics, Protestants, etc. see heaven and Christianity as much more inclusive.

[Physics Guy]

That's another good point. Although I've never been Mormon, I've been learning about Mormonism for some years now, and one clear impression I've gotten from Mormons is that the LDS church is very much the church of being The Church. Mormon ecclesiology is bigger than Mormon theology: in practice, Mormon beliefs about the status of their church as an institution are much more important in Mormon religious lives than any details of Mormon theology.

The Mormon claim is that the Mormon institutional church, with all its official hierarchy, is God's own pet project on Earth. To me it seems very much that what Mormons think is that if Jesus were to preach again today, he would not sit down and start saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven," but rather, "Russel M. Nelson is the Prophet, and Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring are his two Counselors in the First Presidency ...".

Mormons do want to be considered as Christians, but that is not all they want. They want to be considered as the only real Christians, in the only real Church. Everybody else is only pretending to be a church. It is a stronger claim even than the Roman Catholic Church's claim to be the one Ark of Salvation.

For example, the Catholic Church does not recognise Mormon baptism as a valid sacrament, because the Catholic Church officially deems Mormon doctrine to be non-Trinitarian. The Catholic Church does, however, recognise the baptisms of most other Christian denominations as valid, and will refuse to re-baptise people who become Catholic after having been baptised in other churches. The LDS Church, in contrast, recognises only its own baptisms. No other form of baptism can count, in Mormon eyes.

[Fence Sitter]

The Mormon claim is that the Mormon institutional church, with all its official hierarchy, is God's own pet project on Earth. To me it seems very much that what Mormons think is that if Jesus were to preach again today, he would not sit down and start saying, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven," but rather, "Russel M. Nelson is the Prophet, and Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring are his two Counselors in the First Presidency ...".

This reminds me of an old I've got good news and bad news joke.

Two priests are sitting at a bar. One says, “I’ve got good news and bad news.”
“What’s the good news?” his friend asks.
“Jesus has returned.”
“And the bad news?”
“He’s in Salt Lake.”

[Hound of Heaven]

In conclusion, this is my proof of Mormonism being part of Christianity.

1 God 2 God's 3 God's 4 God's, none of that holds significance if one genuinely comprehends Mormonism, which many do not truly grasp. Understanding Mormonism requires considering their perspective on eternal progression. Consider this: according to Mormonism, we have always existed as an eternal intelligence. There has never been a moment when we did not exist in this capacity, and our intelligence is the only aspect of our being that is genuinely considered eternal according to Mormon doctrine.

Regardless of our actions on earth or the realms we may enter, whether it be hell or one of the heavenly kingdoms, we remain eternal, akin to a spirit that has achieved divinity through steadfast obedience. With that in mind, what I aim to express is that in Mormonism, if one is courageous enough to acknowledge the truth—though this is often not the case—there are indeed billions, if not millions or trillions, of Gods, each creating planets to house their spirit children through the experience of mortality.

If they truly conveyed their beliefs, more individuals might be inclined to join the church. However, they seem to be in a phase where they prioritize the appearance of being Christian over imparting their genuine doctrine. If Joseph Smith had not developed a controversial reputation and pursued multiple marriages, I believe the Mormon church could have thrived and its teachings might appeal to a broader audience. However, for the past century, they have been preoccupied with distancing themselves from the negative associations of polygamy, leading to efforts to obscure certain aspects of their doctrine in an attempt to conceal the more favorable elements of Mormonism from public view.

It's important to keep in mind that everyone who reads this that was either a Mormon or ex-Mormon, has likely pondered and perhaps even fantasized about the idea of becoming a God at some stage in their lives, particularly during their youth. We all pondered whether we could create planets that surpass the one we inhabit now. We all envisioned the plants or animals we might populate our planets with when we ascended to divinity.

Here’s another brief piece of information for you. Mormons hold the view that Christianity is a mortal religion. In other words, it was not present prior to our existence on earth, it will cease to exist after the second coming, and it will not be found in heaven. Although a Mormon may not openly acknowledge it, they often view Christianity as being on par with atheism. Meaning, there's nothing in Christianity that will help you in the spirit world.

So, Mormons are not Christians because they are not monotheist. They are far from it! And they should be proud of that, but at the moment they're having an identity crisis!

[I Have Questions]

It's important to keep in mind that everyone who reads this that was either a Mormon or ex-Mormon, has likely pondered and perhaps even fantasized about the idea of becoming a God at some stage in their lives, particularly during their youth. We all pondered whether we could create planets that surpass the one we inhabit now. We all envisioned the plants or animals we might populate our planets with when we ascended to divinity.

I don’t know of anyone that has done that. But I concede that you are admitting that you have done that.

[Hound of Heaven]

It's important to keep in mind that everyone who reads this that was either a Mormon or ex-Mormon, has likely pondered and perhaps even fantasized about the idea of becoming a God at some stage in their lives, particularly during their youth. We all pondered whether we could create planets that surpass the one we inhabit now. We all envisioned the plants or animals we might populate our planets with when we ascended to divinity.

I don’t know of anyone that has done that. But I concede that you are admitting that you have done that.

Come on, be serious. If you haven't encountered any Mormons who have envisioned or talked about what their future planets might be like, then you really don't understand Mormonism at all!

The discussion would center on whether the discovery of dinosaur bones, which date back millions of years, on a planet that is only 6000 years old, could suggest that Heavenly Father utilized "matter" from other planets to shape this world. My sister maintains that dinosaur bones exist on earth because the ground from which they are excavated was once part of a different planet. She believes that heavenly father took that piece of matter and merged it with other fragments from ancient planets to create our planet, similar to when children mix various colors of playdough, creating a ball of colors.