Homosexuality Thread for the Celestial Forum

[Shulem]

The checkered history of senior Church leaders in respect of matters of gender and identity is entirely understandable (albeit reprehensible in the cold light of a 21st-century day)

Understandable, in what way?

un·der·stand·a·ble
adjective:

• able to be understood.
  "though his accent was strange, the words were perfectly understandable"

• to be expected; natural, reasonable, or forgivable.
  "such fears are understandable"

I do not consider the checkered past judgments of Church leaders to be forgivable. Their so-called enlightened spiritual minds were an abomination and out of bounds with what is natural and reasonable with regards to the principle of love. The judgments of Church leaders was hate-based and was motivated by fear and ignorance.

[French Toast]

Understandable, in what way?

Perfectly understandable within the wider context of an evolutionary process. I believe in evolution, don't you? I used to believe in magical young-earth creationist fables until it dawned on me one day that God must be the greatest scientist of all with forever to play with. So he has no reason to fast-forward any part of the great plan. And four billion years of evolution take care of the first five days of Moses's creation allegory (which he may have borrowed from someone else).

And finally homo sapiens emerge, and God says to a prominent one, "Hello Adam, I have a job for you".

So if we evolved from wild animals (the natural man), it makes sense that we learnt to reject those of our group who didn't fit in — like other animals still do. That'll be the ones at the centre of the jocks and Barbie-doll false binary, such as the effeminate boys and butch girls.

We forget how little our progenitors understood pretty much anything at all. That's why we still have flat-Earthers and a bunch of principles that make no sense under scientific scrutiny yet people believe them because they were decreed by a wizard-like prophet when no one understood any better.

So Moses comes along and documents into faith-based society layer upon layer of justification for exiling those who didn't fit. Several more followed in his footsteps adding yet more layers, like the insidious apostle Paul.

And that brings us to the 20th century. Well-meaning general authorities saw what was considered debauchery and simply added yet more layers — because no one had counter-information to challenge them. And they did it with a toxic flourish.

Since then, it seems that few if any have been able to step far enough away from the issues to assess them impartially.

My take on it is what I have posted in a few places recently, that biology loads the gun — and society (family, faith, secular) pulls the trigger.

I'm a same-sex attracted man, but I don't believe I was born gay. In fact, I don't believe "gay" and other gender and identity issues are really anything more than a response unintentionally taught by society in a botched attempt at avoiding its greatest fear of being unacceptable and ostracised.

This has gone on too long, sorry. I can't help myself. It positively spews out of me.

I feel contempt for the so-called inspired messages of the past in this respect — such that I did the usual thing of writing a lengthy protest letter to the Office of the First Presidency. But I understand why things happened as they did.

I can also understand why "God' in the personification of my stake patriarch, instructed me to marry a woman and have children. I also know why I was obedient. And now I know why my emotional state continues to be one long slow-motion train-wreck.

[Shulem]

Perfectly understandable within the wider context of an evolutionary process. I believe in evolution, don't you?

There is an old saying that all truth is found in one great whole and that which is false is not true. I offer little allowance for religious men who claim to be enlightened and in touch with the divine while at the same time they persecute gay love. I point a finger of condemnation against them just as fast as they can against me. No excuses accepted!

I used to believe in magical young-earth creationist fables until it dawned on me one day that God must be the greatest scientist of all with forever to play with. So he has no reason to fast-forward any part of the great plan. And four billion years of evolution take care of the first five days of Moses's creation allegory (which he may have borrowed from someone else).

And the price of tea in China is?

And finally homo sapiens emerge, and God says to a prominent one, "Hello Adam, I have a job for you".

Which means nothing to two men today who are happily married (or together) and living their own lives.

So if we evolved from wild animals (the natural man), it makes sense that we learnt to reject those of our group who didn't fit in — like other animals still do. That'll be the ones at the centre of the jocks and Barbie-doll false binary, such as the effeminate boys and butch girls.

Love transcends all things. That is the greatest lesson of life. Everything else is a distraction in one way or another. Give me love or leave me alone.

We forget how little our progenitors understood pretty much anything at all. That's why we still have flat-Earthers and a bunch of principles that make no sense under scientific scrutiny yet people believe them because they were decreed by a wizard-like prophet when no one understood any better.

Flat-earthers and gay bashing go hand in hand.

So Moses comes along and documents into faith-based society layer upon layer of justification for exiling those who didn't fit. Several more followed in his footsteps adding yet more layers, like the insidious apostle Paul.

Religious nuts.

And that brings us to the 20th century. Well-meaning general authorities saw what was considered debauchery and simply added yet more layers — because no one had counter-information to challenge them. And they did it with a toxic flourish.

More religious nuts to go in the same can with the others.

Since then, it seems that few if any have been able to step far enough away from the issues to assess them impartially.

Their credibility is shot.

My take on it is what I have posted in a few places recently, that biology loads the gun — and society (family, faith, secular) pulls the trigger.

Such triggers are based on hate and ignorance.

I'm a same-sex attracted man, but I don't believe I was born gay. In fact, I don't believe "gay" and other gender and identity issues are really anything more than a response unintentionally taught by society in a botched attempt at avoiding its greatest fear of being unacceptable and ostracised.

I don’t share your opinion in that regard. And my experiences say otherwise. But your journey is yours and mine is mine.

This has gone on too long, sorry. I can't help myself. It positively spews out of me.

I feel contempt for the so-called inspired messages of the past in this respect — such that I did the usual thing of writing a lengthy protest letter to the Office of the First Presidency. But I understand why things happened as they did.

I can also understand why "God' in the personification of my stake patriarch, instructed me to marry a woman and have children. I also know why I was obedient. And now I know why my emotional state continues to be one long slow-motion train-wreck.

You have to take charge of your life and call into action what you want and expect for yourself. Stop the train-wreck and set and chart a new path -- reset, shift, and heal yourself. You are God.

[French Toast]

Your words convey significant anger. I hope your blood pressure is under control.

An impasse is reached when two people insist they are correct simply on account of how they feel. Human thought is subject to considerable bias, depending on circumstances. Our place in this world is programmed by society long before we learn how to speak or make sense of life. Were it not so, it would follow that conditions like PTSD — which alter reason and judgement — must be inherent, yet they are demonstrably brought on by specific sets of events.

The only parts of us that aren't imprinted by society are reflexes (e.g., blinking) and instincts (e.g., hunger). Everything else is learnt behaviour, including the specifics of attraction. Some individuals develop behaviours from positive reinforcement while others learn from counterproductive influences.

I accept your right to self-determination. However, I don't accept the argument that love is love. Like it or not, you are referring to romantic love, which is considered to be a relatively modern confection. Biology and God both want us to perpetuate our species. Anything else is a dead end, regardless of how natural or genuine those feelings may seem at the individual level.

You and I agree that egregious errors have been made (and are still being made) by those who profess to speak for God. We disagree, however, on the nature of recovery. From my perspective, you would like society to offer a more comfortable landing at the bottom of a figurative cliff — that is, to be more accepting of the injuries you sustained at the hands of others. I, on the other hand, would like society to erect a fence at the top of the cliff. I would like society to overcome its obsession with gender stereotypes that support the majority and injure the few. But this can only happen if society will address the root cause rather than the symptoms.

[Shulem]

Your words convey significant anger. I hope your blood pressure is under control.

I believe it reasonable and prudent to have anger towards a religious organization’s efforts (past & present) to thwart the rights and privileges of gay people who express their LOVE one for another. Indeed, I am angry with the Mormon church for trampling on the rights of free citizens to enjoy their own lives and walk their own paths outside the bounds of Mormon ideology and rules. And I will not repent or relent from my position! Not now and not ever regardless of my blood pressure! Even if it kills me! So be it. I stand by what I believe and fight for my right to love whom I will! The church be damned.

Yes, I am angry that Mormonism teaches gay love is sin and those who practice it are under the influence of Satan and will be subject to spiritual hellfire and punishment and ultimately banished from the presence of God for having committed such grievous sins.

Love is love and when anyone tells me otherwise, I walk away from them and withhold my fellowship from such people because they seek to hurt me and destroy my happiness.

[Shulem]

An impasse is reached when two people insist they are correct simply on account of how they feel.

I know I am correct when I say that I LOVE my husband and that gay love is real. There is no power on earth or in heaven that can change that truth. Period!

I testify that LOVE is love and the expression of love is beautiful.

[Shulem]

Human thought is subject to considerable bias, depending on circumstances. Our place in this world is programmed by society long before we learn how to speak or make sense of life. Were it not so, it would follow that conditions like PTSD — which alter reason and judgement — must be inherent, yet they are demonstrably brought on by specific sets of events.

Everyone has the right and means to reprogram themselves and correct their subconscious thinking to conform with what they consciously desire to achieve. That may take work and effort but it is possible to overcome the world and become who and what one desires to be.

I am God.

[Shulem]

I accept your right to self-determination. However, I don't accept the argument that love is love.

I can look towards the sun and see the shine of its rays. Likewise, I can feel the love that radiates from my heart.

I am God.

[bill4long]

The only parts of us that aren't imprinted by society are reflexes (e.g., blinking) and instincts (e.g., hunger). Everything else is learnt behaviour, including the specifics of attraction.

In my own experience, I couldn't disagree more. I liked girls at the age of four. I was downright infatuated. It was powerful and obvious. Nobody taught me that. I was born straight. Super straight.

[Shulem]

Like it or not, you are referring to romantic love, which is considered to be a relatively modern confection. Biology and God both want us to perpetuate our species. Anything else is a dead end, regardless of how natural or genuine those feelings may seem at the individual level.

I am referring to LOVE which makes me happy and gives me joy.

You seek to destroy that love and hinder who I am.

You are like wind.