Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

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Shulem
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

Post by Shulem »

Ramus_Stein wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:46 pm
I agree that the Bible started to be read according to these later ideas, but it would be impossible for the writers of the Bible to teach these ideas centuries before they were invented by European colonial powers.
Perhaps we can agree that biblical racism and modern racism have their own brands and agendas. For the Israelites, it wasn't the color of skin that mattered but the blood and lineage. In modern racism it's not so much the blood in the vein that matters but the dark skin and prejudice of another race and culture. But the bottom line is in both cases race is the deciding factor. The Levites held their ground insomuch as if you were not descended from the Levi race then you couldn't hold the priesthood. Even the king of Israel was restricted and eating bread in the temple could get him in trouble with his spiritual leaders.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

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Ramus_Stein wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:55 pm
I don't think the people who wrote the books of the Bible were racist in the way you are claiming. Race theory was not yet invented. Other than that, what you have to say on the priesthood here is very interesting. What is the relationship between the two priesthoods? I am not talking about Aaronic and Melchizedek but the one by lineal descent and the one without descent? Usually Mormon writers write about the second one and don't say much about the first. Even Mormon scholars at BYU you think would know about priesthood by descent say almost nothing to help a person understand the patriarchal priesthood.
Good question, Ramus. And unfortunately I don't know. I am not sure who does, but I don't have a thorough education on the history, doctrine, and theology of Mormon priesthood. Could it be that those who had the lineal priesthood still needed to obtain the non-lineal priesthood? Shulem has brought an important aspect of this question to our attention.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

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Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:04 pm
Good point, Shulem. How is it that Abraham had the priesthood and knew all of its mysteries while the Pharaoh, a figure associated with all kinds of magic and mystical symbolism, did not. Joseph Smith provides his own answer, and it looks like it has racial implications too. And yet, if it is as someone like Brigham Young assumed, then why is it that Joseph Smith ordained Black men to the priesthood? Why did it take Brigham Young to close off the access of Black men to the blessings of the priesthood? It is an interesting question.
Perhaps Brigham Young in his more younger days was more charitable and accepting than he was as time went by and he learned to assume the role of a religious dictator having absolute power over the people -- temporally and spiritually. Mormonism was developing and the essential doctrines given by Smith were open to reinterpretation and new understanding. Hence, out with the blacks. The negro blood was cursed and a new order would be sustained as the law of God -- until 1978 when the Church was in jeopardy of losing its tax exempt status.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

Post by Ramus_Stein »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:05 pm
Fair enough. I would go farther and say that all categories are mental constructs. Despite that, we talk about the labels we create for our created categories and both talk about and act upon them as if they were real. I see race as no different. To the extent race consists of human created categories based on epigenetic differences triggered by the environmental conditions in which people lived, did the authors of the Bible not observe those differences and view them with some significance? Replacing the constructed category of "race" with the constructed category of "ethnicity" looks to me like a distinction without a difference.

Anyway, thanks for unpacking that. Carry on.
I agree. All categories are mental constructs. I add that all categories are not equally valuable or bad. Your question about "epigenetic differences triggered by environmental conditions" in the Bible is something I have to research to learn more about. That sounds more scientific than my understanding of the Bible. Before Peter sees the dream about the unclean animals in Acts all of the Bible looks to me to be about the chosen people versus everyone else. Are there discussions about environmental conditions that define the identities of all of the other groups? Or is it the covenant of God with Abraham that defines Israel versus all the other groups? If the latter is the case, then I don't see where environmental conditions come into the question. But you may know more than I do about that question in the Bible.

I am not defending xenophobia or ethnocentricity. I was just noticing that the term racism looked out of place in a discussion about the Bible. What I said to Shulem is that modern interpretations of the Bible are influenced by racism. That influence of racism is seen in Joseph Smith's work too.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

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Shulem wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:27 pm
Perhaps Brigham Young in his more younger days was more charitable and accepting than he was as time went by and he learned to assume the role of a religious dictator having absolute power over the people -- temporally and spiritually. Mormonism was developing and the essential doctrines given by Smith were open to reinterpretation and new understanding. Hence, out with the blacks. The negro blood was cursed and a new order would be sustained as the law of God -- until 1978 when the Church was in jeopardy of losing its tax exempt status.
Yes, I am definitely not a fan of Brigham Young, and I do think he was something of a tyrant, as well as a greedy man and a coward. I blame him for so many things that went wrong with Mormonism. Racism, inequality between the sexes, etc. It is not like the Mormon Church would have been perfect were it not for Brigham, but I think it would have been a lot less bad. He saved Mormonism in some respects, but in others he effectively killed it.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

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Ramus_Stein wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:30 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:05 pm
Fair enough. I would go farther and say that all categories are mental constructs. Despite that, we talk about the labels we create for our created categories and both talk about and act upon them as if they were real. I see race as no different. To the extent race consists of human created categories based on epigenetic differences triggered by the environmental conditions in which people lived, did the authors of the Bible not observe those differences and view them with some significance? Replacing the constructed category of "race" with the constructed category of "ethnicity" looks to me like a distinction without a difference.

Anyway, thanks for unpacking that. Carry on.
I agree. All categories are mental constructs. I add that all categories are not equally valuable or bad. Your question about "epigenetic differences triggered by environmental conditions" in the Bible is something I have to research to learn more about. That sounds more scientific than my understanding of the Bible. Before Peter sees the dream about the unclean animals in Acts all of the Bible looks to me to be about the chosen people versus everyone else. Are there discussions about environmental conditions that define the identities of all of the other groups? Or is it the covenant of God with Abraham that defines Israel versus all the other groups? If the latter is the case, then I don't see where environmental conditions come into the question. But you may know more than I do about that question in the Bible.

I am not defending xenophobia or ethnocentricity. I was just noticing that the term racism looked out of place in a discussion about the Bible. What I said to Shulem is that modern interpretations of the Bible are influenced by racism. That influence of racism is seen in Joseph Smith's work too.
Good points. To clarify, my description of the epigenetic blah blah blah was a modern explanation of the differences in appearance that became the basis of our conception of race. I don't think the Bible authors knew about epigenetics. ;) Now that I think about it, I probably don't actually know the extent to which those differences in appearance existed when and where the Bible was written. So, I should just shuffle along. :lol:

ETA: I also did not mean to imply that you were defending whatever the appropriate label is. I understood you to be addressing the accuracy of terminology. :)
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

Post by Ramus_Stein »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:43 pm
Good points. To clarify, my description of the epigenetic blah blah blah was a modern explanation of the differences in appearance that became the basis of our conception of race. I don't think the Bible authors knew about epigenetics. ;) Now that I think about it, I probably don't actually know the extent to which those differences in appearance existed when and where the Bible was written. So, I should just shuffle along. :lol:

ETA: I also did not mean to imply that you were defending whatever the appropriate label is. I understood you to be addressing the accuracy of terminology. :)
I figured you must be talking about differences in the way people look, and I don't know that much about this topic in the Bible. The Song of Solomon was thought by some to address the Ethiopian queen. She would have looked much different than Solomon. Wasn't there a Black man who became a convert to Christianity in Acts? Or am I thinking about later assumptions about his identity? I don't know. All I do know is that I don't know much about prejudice based on appearance in the Bible. I am more familiar with prejudice based on covenant identity and Jewish prejudice against their near neighbors like the Moabites or the Samaritans. I always assumed these people looked a whole lot like the Jews.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

Post by Res Ipsa »

Ramus_Stein wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:01 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:43 pm
Good points. To clarify, my description of the epigenetic blah blah blah was a modern explanation of the differences in appearance that became the basis of our conception of race. I don't think the Bible authors knew about epigenetics. ;) Now that I think about it, I probably don't actually know the extent to which those differences in appearance existed when and where the Bible was written. So, I should just shuffle along. :lol:

ETA: I also did not mean to imply that you were defending whatever the appropriate label is. I understood you to be addressing the accuracy of terminology. :)
I figured you must be talking about differences in the way people look, and I don't know that much about this topic in the Bible. The Song of Solomon was thought by some to address the Ethiopian queen. She would have looked much different than Solomon. Wasn't there a Black man who became a convert to Christianity in Acts? Or am I thinking about later assumptions about his identity? I don't know. All I do know is that I don't know much about prejudice based on appearance in the Bible. I am more familiar with prejudice based on covenant identity and Jewish prejudice against their near neighbors like the Moabites or the Samaritans. I always assumed these people looked a whole lot like the Jews.
I have to admit, having been raised LDS, my thinking about Old Testament peoples is tangled up with the Book of Abraham. I think the sources of prejudice you identify are probably more accurate than differences in physical appearance. Where's a time machine when you need one? :lol:
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

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Ramus_Stein wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:01 pm
Wasn't there a Black man who became a convert to Christianity in Acts? Or am I thinking about later assumptions about his identity? I don't know.
He was an Ethiopian, so it's assumed that he was black.
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Re: Joseph Smith's Inherited Priesthood

Post by Ramus_Stein »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:55 am
He was an Ethiopian, so it's assumed that he was black.
Thank you, Dr. Shades. That is the advantage of finding a discussion board filled with knowledgeable people.
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