Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
shiz
Nursery
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:56 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by shiz »

Hi group - I'm new here, hearing about the forum on RFM's latest episode. Grew up Mormon, no longer believing, TBM wife, & I am currently active and teach gospel doctrine... ;) But I write on another matter -->

Turns out that 2 years ago, after ordering Kathleeen Kimball Melonakos' book, Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, I stopped reading at page 77. Just picked it up again. I learned about it on Mormon Stories, and recall Dehlin seeming to not take the author seriously for a good chunk of the interview. Can anyone share some insight as to why that may be? Do scholars not like her work? I really enjoy her writing and findings so thought I'd check with the group for any insight.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by Res Ipsa »

shiz wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:39 am
Hi group - I'm new here, hearing about the forum on RFM's latest episode. Grew up Mormon, no longer believing, TBM wife, & I am currently active and teach gospel doctrine... ;) But I write on another matter -->

Turns out that 2 years ago, after ordering Kathleeen Kimball Melonakos' book, Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, I stopped reading at page 77. Just picked it up again. I learned about it on Mormon Stories, and recall Dehlin seeming to not take the author seriously for a good chunk of the interview. Can anyone share some insight as to why that may be? Do scholars not like her work? I really enjoy her writing and findings so thought I'd check with the group for any insight.
Can't help you with the book, but welcome.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
kathleen
Nursery
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2020 12:02 am

Re: Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by kathleen »

Hello Shiz,

This is Kathleen Kimball Melonakos, the author of Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847. Glad you have enjoyed my book, at least the part you have read. You refer to the John Dehlin interview that I did on Mormon Stories. Perhaps I can fill you in on that, at least from my point of view, and from the feedback I have received from others.

When John left Mormonism, he became an ardent secular humanist. When my husband and I left Mormonism in our early twenties, it was because we discovered scandals in Mormon history, like polygamy, that did not jive with the official story. I no longer trusted the original or current Mormon leaders, but I never stopped believing in God. I didn't know what I believed about God, and I searched for truth for about twenty years. I read hundreds of books--science (I am an RN), philosophy (I have a Stanford masters degree), literature, history, art, classics, comparative religions, psychology, etc. I came to be familiar with some theories that I didn't believe, until God led me to the Bible.

The Bible is a unique book, in a class by itself. It is written by 66 of authors over hundreds of years, yet there is internal consistency. The Bible tells the real story of the Messiah, not the counterfeit one that Joseph Smith invented. I became a Christian after reading the English Standard Bible and hearing the real gospel of Jesus Christ preached. All I can say is that if you are going to reject Christianity, find out what it really is first. Don't believe Joseph Smith's adulterated version, which is not really Christianity at all.

I do not believe John Dehlin has ever investigated the Bible, or Christianity. He, as do others, lumps Mormonism and Christianity together and rejects them both out of hand. He liked my book a lot, and the first 4 hours of the interview went well. It was when we came to the final episode that dealt with my personal beliefs that he became hostile. He attacked my beliefs and constantly interrupted me. I had no idea he was going to do that, yet I answered the best I could. I have heard from many people that they thought he was unfair and inappropriate in the final interview with me. Funny thing, he did not treat Sandra Tanner, (also a committed Christian), anything like he treated me.

I tried to be very factual, not biased, in Secret Combinations. But no one totally eliminates their worldview from their writing. Because my family history goes back generations in Mormonism and my family was adversely affected by polygamy, I really wanted to know what happened in the early days. While investigating polygamy, I ran into side-stories suggesting the early Mormon leaders were counterfeiters and horse thieves. When I investigated more about counterfeiting in early America, the shoe seemed to fit more and more. By this time I was a Christian, and could mention ways in my book where the early Mormons deviated from traditional Biblical beliefs. Yes, they started a movement and pioneered the west in amazing ways. But, if at the same time they were counterfeiters and horse thieves (both felonies), they were not "men of the God of the Bible," as they claimed.

I have gotten pretty good reviews on my book, and the John Whitmer Historical Association published my article on counterfeiting, after doing a rigorous peer review. Of course it is a controversial topic. I encourage you to do your own investigation, and make up your own mind.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by Shulem »

kathleen wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:40 am
The Bible is a unique book, in a class by itself.

Yes, it certainly is a book in a class by itself. The transition from the Old to the New Testament involves doing away with animal sacrifice and placing faith in a human sacrifice -- from someone who is supposedly divine, the "Son of God".

As for me, I don't put faith in animal sacrifices or a divine human coming down from heaven to perform a last sacrifice designed to supercede all the proxy animals that were slaughtered on sacrificial altars to satisfy Jehovah's wishes.

I'm not a Christian. I totally reject that religion. Whether it be Abraham willing to slay his own son or a Heavenly Father sending his own Son to his doom in order to forgive sins -- none of that is for me. It repulses me. I can hardly abide to think about it because it makes me ill. The world is evolving and transitioning away from mythical religion that requires belief in suffering, death, and total allegiance to a God who requires blood being spilt in order for him to forgive.

Anyway, best wishes in your life's pursuit to find and enjoy happiness. And welcome to the board!
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by Philo Sofee »

shiz wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:39 am
Hi group - I'm new here, hearing about the forum on RFM's latest episode. Grew up Mormon, no longer believing, TBM wife, & I am currently active and teach gospel doctrine... ;) But I write on another matter -->

Turns out that 2 years ago, after ordering Kathleeen Kimball Melonakos' book, Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847, I stopped reading at page 77. Just picked it up again. I learned about it on Mormon Stories, and recall Dehlin seeming to not take the author seriously for a good chunk of the interview. Can anyone share some insight as to why that may be? Do scholars not like her work? I really enjoy her writing and findings so thought I'd check with the group for any insight.
Shiz! Welcome! But, on this one yer just gonna hafta use yer head.........get it? :lol: :lol: :lol: (sorry couldn't help myself)
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by Philo Sofee »

And a big hello to Kathleen as well. I don't put near as much stock into any scriptures of the West as you do, but that's o.k. No worries. I think in my readings of Bart Ehrman, William Dever, and other Bible scholars (Spong also) I have a little less enthusiasm about it (the Bible) being an accurate book about much of anything. It also has an agenda. That's how I understand it, (not near well enough, but unable to put the time into doing it for now in my life).....

Good to have you and Shiz here! Hope to have a lot of good discussions with you....
shiz
Nursery
Posts: 4
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:56 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA

Re: Question about "Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting" book

Post by shiz »

kathleen wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 1:40 am
Hello Shiz,

This is Kathleen Kimball Melonakos, the author of Secret Combinations: Evidence of Early Mormon Counterfeiting 1800-1847. Glad you have enjoyed my book, at least the part you have read. You refer to the John Dehlin interview that I did on Mormon Stories. Perhaps I can fill you in on that, at least from my point of view, and from the feedback I have received from others....
How wonderful to hear from you, Kathleen! Before writing my initial question I should have re-familiarized myself with your Dehlin interview, but your recap brings it all back. As I remember it, I was pretty captivated the entire interview but I do remember Dehlin letting you have it at the end which must have left an impression with me that by attacking your current religious beliefs he was also discounting your scholarship. That said, after listening I ordered your book right away. Side story: While reading it one night, my TBM wife asked what I was reading and that set off a minor domestic verbal skirmish, so I remember putting your book in a hard to find place only to rediscover it nearly two years later!

I've only read a few more pages since rediscovering the book but I find what you've written so far absolutely dripping with dense detail and connection that you don't find in many other places. The part I just enjoyed reading was Joseph H. Jackson's quote of Joseph Smith admitting that he was an atheist and that Lyman Spaulding authored the Book of Mormon. Because of the Lyman reference most have dismissed Jackson's tell-all, but I think you bring it back to life by showing the relationship tree -- there really was a Lyman! And the connection could be meaningful in renewing the idea of the Spaulding Theory, which I think is the most plausible of the theories on the Book of Mormon's creation.

I don't know that anyone else has successfully mapped relationships like these, post-Fawn Brodie. Understanding how all were so much more interconnected -- especially around Dartmouth -- is a masterful finding. I'm no scholar so maybe I've missed it in early Dialogue articles or another book out there, but point is I'm seeing it for the first time in your book and am loving it!

The other piece you mentioned with Dehlin was the possible connection Joseph had to a murder during his days living in Pennsylvania. I'll be interested in learning more on that one, too. If I remember right, Dehlin didn't take that one seriously.

My growing theory is that Joseph was very intentionally deceiving everyone from the beginning. He was not delusional, or especially hopeful, as many seem to believe, but was an atheist early on. So far, your book kind of feeds that idea for me. It's something we'll never know but someone engaged in the level of deceit he was from an early age, and ancestrally, tends to lead me there. That's where your work on their counterfeiting is so important as it paints a clearer picture of one prone to lie, and not for the Lord.

As I get through the book I'll reach out again. Thanks for your good efforts.

And regarding your Christian faith, I respect it 100%. I've lost my faith in just about everything but I like hearing how others have rebuilt post-Mormonism.
Post Reply