Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

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Kishkumen
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Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

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Last Saturday the first of what I hope will be a series of workshops on Mormonism and Western Esotericism took place online. There were seven presenters in all, speaking on topics including magic, Freemasonry, the endowment and more. It was a very spirited gathering that brought together active LDS scholars, magicians, ex-Mormons, academics. Our old friends George Miller, Don Bradley, and yours truly presented. George Miller presented on Master Mahan. Don Bradley presented on the seals of the Book of Mormon. My presentation was on the endowment.

Overall, I would say that it was a big success. Many of the presenters lavished praise on their experience. It was nice to get together as a group with very similar interests, many of whom have been researching these and similar topics for over a decade or more. There were some minor fireworks. At one point one of the active LDS presenters cautioned that too vociferous disrespect for Mormonism was not healthy for the discussion. I agreed. And, honestly, I am tired of it. I would like there to be a space where people can discuss Mormonism without ridicule or hypersensitivity. Obviously, this forum is not such a place, and neither is MDDB, but it would be nice to find one.

That said, I think this gathering came close. It helped that there were people across the spectrum who were truly committed to having a constructive scholarly dialogue. The point of the meeting was not to promote Mormonism, defend Mormonism, criticize Mormonism, or ridicule Mormonism. It was to understand the history, doctrines, and practices of Mormonism through the lens of Western esotericism. The degree to which we can improve the next meeting such that any trace of other agendas is sidelined to the greatest extent possible will be most welcome.

This meeting was private because the workshop, as I organized it, was for getting feedback on projects that were more in process than polished. It was also to help people who definitely have niche interests in Mormon scholarship get together for open discussion. In the future, we may have events that are open to people who are not a part of the group proper. When we do, I will be sure to invite others.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Res Ipsa
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Re: Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

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Very cool. I look forward to some interesting reading.
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Re: Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

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I am very interested in participating and enjoying reading the presentations. It is exactly the esoteric aspects lacking in Mormonism that I am for myself discovering with the ancients and am beginning to write up on this aspect. I am hard at work on a paper right now on this exact topic, how does Esoteric knowledge from all the ancient world affect us and why does Mormonism not tap into this astonishing spiritual source? How can we individuals add to the Mormon spirituality that we feel it has left out of the discourse about spirituality? Please do email me and get me involved.

Thanks kindly,
Best,
Kerry

P.S. I simply had no idea you were doing this, which tells me I am not keeping in touch with you enough. For that I am sincerely sorry. This is my new way to help me learn to cope with the lack of spirituality in my own life. I will do some great work with you and several others whom I know, and whom know me also. I would much rather be involved in something useful like this than on the sidelines kibitzing. I want to learn and share, not just stand and shout.

P.P.S. There is no question in my mind that Joseph Smith tapped into some of the real Archetypes, but in later interpretations ended up becoming too woodenly literal with them. That woodenness is what I have found to be so dismaying to me, and why I am now making a much more serious attempt at learning the esoteric in relationship to Mormonism's esoteric ideas. The Esoteric is one of the most important things I believe Mormonism can and should get more in depth with. I have come to appreciate that the theme the philosophy of men mingling with scripture is making the wrong distinction. It ought to be the philosophy of men learned with scripture. Yes, Nibley is rolling over in his grave, since he was so anti-philosophy, but I am now beginning to get the gist that he misread the ancient philosophy of the One and the Sacred Archetypes from so many ancient cultures that have lasted right up into our own day, including The Great Mother. My sense now with the Archetypes is we need to be more inclusive using the ancient cultures instead of focus specifically on Ancient Israel and Early Christianity alone. After all, the Archetypes ARE alive today! They are not much paid attention to, but they cannot die and go away. They will always be with us, such as this Great Mother, LDS would call her Heavenly Mother. That is just one among many of them available that Joseph Smith lightly touched on, while emphasizing the literalness, which on my take isn't quite the best way to view and comprehend the Archetypes. Numbers and their spiritual and archetypal symbolism is also fascinating to me, and it is definitely found within Mormonism and some theological issues. Anyway, please involve me, you do not and ought not have to do all this kind of work alone. Somehow we can either find a forum or make on for just this.....
In fact, I think Shades has the capability to create an area right here that only allows certain people to actual post in, such as only participants in the workshop. Others can read, but not post and derail. Lets ask him if that is possible to do.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

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Hey, Philo!

I consider you one of the pioneers in this area. You and Joe Steve Swick III, whose recent health problems are so distressing. It was my great honor to present a paper in the same session with Joe at Sunstone years ago. I apologize for not looping you in. It was a social silo of problem. I organized this on Facebook, and I don’t think I am connected with you there. I brought Ramus Stein over here from the Facebook group. It is weird that I did not tell you because you helped open my mind to the importance of Western esotericism to Mormonism. I recall when you first started talking about Tarot I ignorantly teased you about it. It just shows how divorced Mormonism is from its roots really. Next time I will give you plenty of notice about our next event. If you want to set up a time to present informally to a group over zoom, I would be happy to facilitate it.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:18 pm
Hey, Philo!

I consider you one of the pioneers in this area. You and Joe Steve Swick III, whose recent health problems are so distressing. It was my great honor to present a paper in the same session with Joe at Sunstone years ago. I apologize for not looping you in. It was a social silo of problem. I organized this on Facebook, and I don’t think I am connected with you there. I brought Ramus Stein over here from the Facebook group. It is weird that I did not tell you because you helped open my mind to the importance of Western esotericism to Mormonism. I recall when you first started talking about Tarot I ignorantly teased you about it. It just shows how divorced Mormonism is from its roots really. Next time I will give you plenty of notice about our next event. If you want to set up a time to present informally to a group over zoom, I would be happy to facilitate it.
That would be a delight. OMIGOSH! I went to Joe's presentation! I actually saw you and heard you and didn't know you from Adam......wow...... I too am sorry to hear about our friend and brother Joe. I actually joined Masonry because of his direct influence. Man we would talk on the phone for hours! Then I realized after a couple years that group think just wasn't in me. I never have been negative toward them or my experience with them. I know I need to tone it down with my experience with Mormonism as well, but that isn't quite the same. There has been very much good in my life with Mormonism I am very grateful for having experienced.
Yes, I have found very deep roots in Western esotericism in all sorts of areas that I had never even entertained before I met Joe. My God he opened all our eyes on so many facets of Spirituality in so many cultures, ancient and medieval. One of the singular most spiritual people I have ever been graced to know and know bout. He was always light years ahead of me. He would recommend a book and I'd get it and read it in one setting and we'd talk about it. I did that with pretty much everything he mentioned. It sorta shocked him I was absorbing so much so fast. A lot of fun those good days on the email list Mormon Mysticism. It was after that the heavy dark clouds about Mormonism began gathering in me and I had to bow out. Dang it.

Yes I shall gather my thoughts and put together some materials and keep you informed. I am very excited and interested. The Spirit in me knows no bounds apparently. It's kicking the stuffing out of me right now to get back to researching and writing. I would so love to gather with folks like you had in this seminar and discuss things intelligently without worrying about who is right or wrong.
Unfortunately I am not on Facebook, I suppose I could hook up through my wife's account. We can figure something out I have no doubt.
The tarot is fascinating as a symbolism. It's been bastardized from its original intent to the point of idiocy, but Joe was so doggone intelligent with it all. He led me to the really great books concerning it and I still have the majority of those. Haven't looked at em in quite a while however. They are seriously as misunderstood today as spirituality is.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

Post by Kishkumen »

We need to expand beyond Facebook, honestly, and reach out to more people with these interests. My hope is to get all folks who are interested in esotericism and Mormonism and want to talk constructively and intelligently about it together—believer and non-believer. Keep me in the loop about your preparation and we can arrange a speaking engagement for you.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Philo Sofee
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Re: Workshop on Mormonism and Western Esotericism

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 1:07 am
We need to expand beyond Facebook, honestly, and reach out to more people with these interests. My hope is to get all folks who are interested in esotericism and Mormonism and want to talk constructively and intelligently about it together—believer and non-believer. Keep me in the loop about your preparation and we can arrange a speaking engagement for you.
Got a new little ditty in the Terrestrial Forum "Mormonism and the Individual Why the Overbearing Guilt?" More of a brief introduction to the esoteric I see Mormonism is ignoring or simply does not grasp....... I did a quick spurt of writing tonight.
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