New Church Logo of Jesus in a Bell Jar?

[Shulem]

I would be amiss if at this point, I continued my presentation and failed to take into consideration a typical Mormon apologetic approach in justifying statues to the glory of Christ. But, let's be clear about something: I'm not a Jew! I'm not a Christian! I'm only standing up for what Moses said and point out that Christians have justified their religious practice because they feel it supersedes old interpretations or that Moses only referred to graven images made to false gods. Apologists believe that Moses made no specific reference to graven images made in the image or likeness of Jehovah. But, as I've shown earlier in this thread, in quoting scripture, that does not seem to be the case.

Question: Does the Church violate the Biblical command against "graven images" by displays sculptures of Christ?

Well, let's ask the reverse: Did Moses or the prophets ever command the children of Israel to sculpt images made to represent Jehovah's person?

[ ] Yes
[x] No

I'm not concerned about the FACT that Moses had various instruments and devices crafted for religious purposes, to include angelic figures having wings -- I'm only concerned that at no time did Moses authorize anyone to sculpt the face or body of God. Period.

Exodus 20:3-4 does not mean that one cannot have pictures, statues, or images of earthly or heavenly things in one's home or in church

I agree that Moses did not say that one cannot have pictures, statues, or images of earthly or heavenly things in one's home or in the synagogue that are not made to represent a deity, including the LORD. But graven images made to represent a deity whether in heaven or on earth was expressly forbidden.

It is claimed that the Church violates the Biblical command against "graven images" because it displays sculptures of Christ, statues of the angel Moroni on the spires of our temples, or paintings showing scriptural scenes, within temples, chapels, visitors' centers, and publications.

The "sculptures of Christ" are a violation of Moses' law because they depict an image of a deity. Moses never approved or advocated the sculpting of images of Jehovah for the tabernacle of the congregation. Likewise, as far as we know, Peter never approved images made to represent Christ. The angel Moroni atop the Mormon temples is an ornament and not an idol for worship.

[Shulem]

Since

1. God is the revelator of the verses in question, and
2. God is God, and
3. Moses was there and heard firsthand,

one should side with God and Moses and say that Exodus 20:3 does not mean that one cannot have pictures, statues, or images of earthly or heavenly things in one's home or in church.

You can have pictures, statues, and images at home and church but you can't fashion graven images of a deity -- whether it be a false deity or a true deity -- NO graven images. Why is that so hard to understand? Have you not read the scriptures? Don't you think that if the Lord had wanted Moses to paint his face or make statues of him that he would have made that known?

Instead one should stick with the unambiguous interpretation of this principle that is given in Exodus 34:17, "Thou shalt make thee no molten gods." We are commanded not to worship images, or anything else besides God, and members of the Church do not.

Moses commanded that the children of Israel: 1) Not make graven images and, 2) Not worship graven images. Both can be mutually exclusive insofar as you can do #1 and not the other and still be breaking a Ten Commandment! The very act of making a molten god was a violation of the Ten Commandments whether you worshipped it or not! The very act of making a graven image of biblical Jehovah was a violation of the same law. Nobody, not the Israelites nor any of the surrounding nations were granted the divine right under Moses' law to fashion images of Jehovah! That would have been an abomination no matter who fashioned the graven images of Jehovah.

It is ironic that those who accuse the LDS of not being Christians then complain that the Saints use images of Christ to remind them of their worship of him.

Yeah, that is a bit ironic, I'll admit that. But what I find ironic is your hypocrisy in adopting a practice by those Christians that former LDS leaders never adopted until David O. McKay came up with a new idea to better promote the Church as a Christian church.

I'm not so much accusing you of being a bad Christian, per se, but I am accusing you of breaking one of the Ten Commandments.

[Shulem]

The prohibition in Exodus 20 is not the production of graven images per se but the bowing down and serving of such images

The prohibition in Exodus 20: (see also Deuteronomy 5:) is not the production of graven images per se but the bowing down and serving of such images.

I don't think you've thought this through very carefully at all. Do you realize what you're saying? The making of graven images was strictly forbidden, period. If there are no graven images then nobody can worship them in the first place. First comes the idol and then comes the worship.

How do you think Moses would have dealt with a local craftsman opening up a shop to make heathen idols of deities representing other religions but was only making them for the purpose of display --trinkets -- novelty items to gawk at, not worship. Do you think Moses is going to let that shop continue and then watch another shop pop up until you have a chain of idol makers selling graven images all over Israel for the purpose of making money and getting their kicks?

As I said, you've not thought this through. Just imagine the possibilities if it's okay to make and possess idols just so long as you don't worship them.

How hardly would Moses approve!

[Shulem]

We should remember that God later commanded the construction of the seraphim and cherubim for the ark (Exodus 25:17-22, Exodus 37:8-9) and temple of Solomon (1 Kings 6:23-35, 1 Kings 8:6-7), and the veneration given to the Ark of the Covenant, as well as the brass serpent (Numbers 21:6-9).

I realize you are looking for reasons to justify the making of images of God in sculpted form but none of those examples above compare with God. The angelic cherubim and ark are not images of God's face or body. The brass serpent on the pole was a snake, not the figure of Jehovah -- the LORD.

At no time did any of the prophets authorize or sanction graven images of any deity whether it be false gods or the God of Israel. As Moses said, no man shall see his face, wherein no man is going to sculpt it. I can only imagine what happened to the poor Jew or Levite that attempted to carve God's face or sculp an image of Jehovah's Person.

Death on the spot? Perhaps.

[Shulem]

Who belongs to the church of the Lamb?

A happy and cordial meeting seems to be taking place between President Nelson and a Catholic Cardinal. A picture tells a thousand words....



It certainly seems that the Catholic Cardinal is happy to receive his latest acquisition. I'm sure he will value it and add it to his collection of other items found within his sanctuary or place of worship.



Cardinal Dolan inspects the Church Christus while a group of sisters (not nuns) reverently stand aloof next to a portrait of Jesus.



Perhaps, feeling the print of the nail in Jesus' foot makes one feel closer to him. Think of the possibilities!

[Shulem]

Now that that the Church has entered a new era in accepting statues of Christ as a means to better identify the Church as a Christian organization in the eyes of the world, there will necessitate the need to introduce new policies regarding statues on Church property. The Church will have to address how statues are physically handled and maintained, to include:

• Production

• Display

• Storage

• Disposal

Each of the categories above involve direct and indirect physical handling in how the statues are marketed and used throughout the Church. Bear in mind, the physical policies are in a class by themselves. There will also, of necessity, have to be policies created and expressed involving spiritual aspects of the statues as they relate to the above four categories. In other words, the general use of graven images of Christ in the Church is going to generate new ideas that will have significant impact on the Church.

[Shulem]

• Production

As the Church continues to add new statues to its collection around the world it will also need to find ways to make it more cost productive because statues are expensive, especial marble statues. The Church will need to find ways to construct quality statues that will be placed in various types of buildings and facilities. A genuine marble Christus for temple properties and imitation casted statues for chapels and stake centers would serve just as well.

It seems the Church is on course to have a statue at every temple and visitors' center, worldwide. It's inevitable that Jesus get proper representation at every site. Keeping consistent with that representation would suggest that a Christus statue be placed at every stake center. With that comes the issue of outdoor and indoor statues so the material of the graven image will vary depending on where it is set up. Ultimately, the Church will be faced with a decision on whether to grace ward houses with a Christus, indoor or outdoor, it will be a major undertaking.

Cost effective measures and quality controls of Church authorized statues might best be achieved through a Church owned facility set up to manufacture and process various grades of graven images for general Church distribution. This could also include small statues for individual member home use. Authorized statues are crafted under Church management and afterward blessed by Church officials for general distribution.

[Shulem]

• Display

This is when the statue meets the stand. The visual display of all Church statues must conform with established Church policies which will evolve over time and transition in order to meet member's expectations and ideals in statue representation.

Will policy of placing of statues provide recommendations that offer options to suit the preferences of local leaders or will all placement and installation be mandated and predetermined? Sizing, location, and quantity are factors that will have to considered in order to control and organize the Statue Program of the Church.

Policies regarding physical placement and maintenance of statues will have to be established. More importantly, however, policies and doctrine regarding representationalism and spiritual symbolism of the statues will be expressed in an official Church Declaration describing the Savior's image being spiritually represented through illustration of art and stone.

[Shulem]

• Storage

Statue storage entails the handling of them after the manufacturing process -- beyond production in readying them for an assembly line set for distribution. The Church run facility will have a dedicated section for storing statues and a separate workshop that specializes strictly in repair and restoration. These facilities will serve as the heart of operations for the Statue Program of the Church. Manufacturing, storage, and distribution under a single umbrella is consistent with the trademark of a centralized controlled Church. It's reasonable to think that every statue will have a model and serial number in which identification and location are easily ascertained.

The question of localized storage around the world is another issue in itself that will require special procedure and separate storage. Storing statues on a local level will require that certain guidelines are maintained and proper handling and storage of each statue is carefully followed using strict Church approved procedures only. Perhaps each stake will be provided with a special equipment room to store statues where they can be picked up for transport and moved to the building in which they will be set.

[Shulem]

• Disposal

The permanent discontinuance of an authorized Church produced statue will require special handling by the Church run disposal unit. This facility is the final resting place for all statues before they are destroyed and materials can be used for recycling purposes. An industrial sized grinding compactor capable of crushing a single item within minutes is the last stage of a statue's function. It follows the general pattern of all things: Creation, life, and death, with the promise of resurrection through Christ.

Every statue produced by the Church is dedicated and blessed after production. The ceremony of blessing statues is a simple priesthood ordinance performed by members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve. The serial number of every statue has an identifying code within it to link the apostle who blessed it. When a statue reaches the end of its useful life and restoration, storage, or sale, is not a feasible option -- the statue will be sent to the Church disposal unit and decommissioned and properly disposed of.

Amen.