“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

[Shulem]

My sense is that you are just accustomed to naïve readings of the text that you now use as straw men to argue for the overall naïvété and ignorance you see in the Book of Mormon.

What is naïve is that faithful readers of the Book of Mormon think that Nephi actually built a temple having walls of stone. The Church ignorantly portrays this in its art and film production. Somebody has to stand up to this nonsense and that somebody is me. I’m also standing up to Joseph Smith and proving him wrong in trying to pull a fast one.

[Kishkumen]

I don’t think it’s vague. Whether you’re talking about making metal swords or stone temples -- you have a template or plan to go by and use the materials it takes to do it:

1) Swords = Metal (large & small)
2) Temples = Stone (large & small)

So,

“And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords”

Or

And I Nephi, did take the temple of Solomon, and after the manner of it did make another temple

So much detail that cannot be included that I think you are reading too much into this. I mean, a sword is a sword. A temple is a temple. You can have a template for building that kind of thing without copying it slavishly. In any case, they had the sword of Laban there with them, not so with the temple of Solomon. There is no way it could be copied as exactly in practical terms. Where would they have gotten all of that information from?

You see, if you push these texts too far, they will break one way or another. Reading too tightly doesn't work here.

[Kishkumen]

What is naïve is that faithful readers of the Book of Mormon think that Nephi actually built a temple having walls of stone. The Church ignorantly portrays this in its art and film production. Somebody has to stand up to this nonsense and that somebody is me. I’m also standing up to Joseph Smith and proving him wrong in trying to pull a fast one.

Carry on! It is a work of literature. So much in the written word does not reflect with perfect accuracy the world it purports to describe.

[Shulem]

MAN'NER, noun

1. Form; method; way of performing or executing.

Find thou the manner and the means prepare.

Nephi had to find a form, method, and way of building the temple. By what means or manner would he build the temple? The manner and means of Solomon’s temple!

MAN'NER, noun

2. Custom; habitual practice.

Show them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. This will be the manner of the king. 1 Samuel 8:9.

Paul, as his manner was--Acts 17:2.

Nephi’s temple was built in custom and practice as that of Solomon’s temple.

MAN'NER, noun

3. Sort; kind.

Ye tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs. Luke 11:42.

They shall say all manner of evil against you falsely--Matthew 5:11.

In this application, manner has the sense of a plural word; all sorts or kinds.

The sort and kind of Nephi’s temple is that of Solomon’s temple.

MAN'NER, noun

4. Certain degree or measure. It is in a manner done already.

The bread is in a manner common. 1 Samuel 21:5.

This use may also be sometimes defined by sort or fashion; as we say, a thing is done after a sort or fashion, that is, not well, fully or perfectly.

Augustinus does in a manner confess the charge.

Nephi’s temple was built after a certain degree or measure as Solomon’s temple. It was done after a sort or fashion, that is, not well, fully or perfectly as Solomon’s but to a degree and measure!

MAN'NER, noun

5. Mien; cast of look; mode.

Air and manner are more expressive than words.

Nephi’s temple looked like Solomon’s temple. The mode was the same.

MAN'NER, noun

6. Peculiar way or carriage; distinct mode.

It can hardly be imagined how great a difference was in the humor, disposition and manner of the army under Essex and that under Waller.

A man's company may be known by his manner of expressing himself.

Nephi’s temple was peculiar and distinct as was Solomon’s temple.

MAN'NER, noun

7. Way; mode; of things.

The temptations of prosperity insinuate themselves after a gentle, but very powerful manner

The way and mode in which Nephi built his temple was in the things in which Solomon’s was built.

MAN'NER, noun

8. Way of service or worship.

The nations which thou hast removed and placed in the cities of Samaria, know not the manner of the god of the land--2 Kings 7:1.

The way and service of worship is had in both temples.

MAN'NER, noun

9. In painting, the particular habit of a painter in managing colors, lights and shades.

In building a temple, the particular habit of a mason in hewing stone, transporting, and setting in place.

[Shulem]

In any case, they had the sword of Laban there with them, not so with the temple of Solomon. There is no way it could be copied as exactly in practical terms. Where would they have gotten all of that information from?

Building construction using fine materials at hand whether ancient or modern requires much skill and precision. I’m sorry if I’ve given the impression that they copied the building of Solomon exactly! That was not my intent. Nephi was a resident of Jerusalem and at minimum would have a basic knowledge of how the temple looked and it’s basic construction. The point I’ve been making all along is that it was made of STONE and the Nephite’s made another temple after the manner of the one they left behind in Jerusalem, a temple made of stone. Book of Mormon narrative often reminds us that Nephi was shown by the Lord the manner in which the ship should be constructed and even how to work the timbers. So, why not show Nephi how to work the stone?

[Kishkumen]

Hey, you do you, Shulem. I don't have to agree. Doesn't really matter anyway. Maybe Smith did want you to think that Nephi and crew built an exact copy of Solomon's temple, including the parts he, his family, and their associates never could have seen because none of them was the high priest. Maybe they had to rely on the spindles on the Liahona to guide their drafting as they drew the plans.

[Shulem]

Hey, you do you, Shulem. I don't have to agree. Doesn't really matter anyway. Maybe Smith did want you to think that Nephi and crew built an exact copy of Solomon's temple, including the parts he, his family, and their associates never could have seen because none of them was the high priest. Maybe they had to rely on the spindles on the Liahona to guide their drafting as they drew the plans.

Perhaps Smith really did think that they reproduced the actual size and proportion of Solomon’s temple? I don’t know. But there is definite allowances for using cheaper materials and nuances that the temple was not as grand in size or scope. But still, it was made of stone and Nephi had the brass plates detailing the exact dimensions of the temple including that of the Holy of Holies (see below):

2 And the house which king Solomon built for the Lord, the length thereof was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits.
3 And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house.

6 The nethermost chamber was five cubits broad, and the middle was six cubits broad, and the third was seven cubits broad: for without in the wall of the house he made narrowed rests round about, that the beams should not be fastened in the walls of the house.
7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

10 And then he built chambers against all the house, five cubits high: and they rested on the house with timber of cedar.

16 And he built twenty cubits on the sides of the house, both the floor and the walls with boards of cedar: he even built them for it within, even for the oracle, even for the most holy place.
17 And the house, that is, the temple before it, was forty cubits long.

etc.

[Shulem]

Maybe they had to rely on the spindles on the Liahona to guide their drafting as they drew the plans.

Or maybe all they needed to do was read the brass plates which detailed the actual plans of the temple!

Touché!

[Kishkumen]

Building construction using fine materials at hand whether ancient or modern requires much skill and precision. I’m sorry if I’ve given the impression that they copied the building of Solomon exactly! That was not my intent. Nephi was a resident of Jerusalem and at minimum would have a basic knowledge of how the temple looked and it’s basic construction. The point I’ve been making all along is that it was made of STONE and the Nephite’s made another temple after the manner of the one they left behind in Jerusalem, a temple made of stone. Book of Mormon narrative often reminds us that Nephi was shown by the Lord the manner in which the ship should be constructed and even how to work the timbers. So, why not show Nephi how to work the stone?

Lots of interesting questions arise from this. How did they replicate the practices of Solomon’s temple? Did Smith even think of this as a problem, or did he think the Old Testament was an adequate manual, or that, as you say later, the brass plates were?
Yeah, I take your point about the ship and the stone construction of the temple, as the ship is kind of a symbol of the temple to be, much like the Tabernacle or the barges of the Jaredites. So, why can’t God just reveal all of it to Nephi? I still don’t see the absolute necessity of using the same materials to build it. Surely accommodations could be made for geological and floral differences.

[Shulem]

Kishkumen,

Indeed, so many questions. Smith’s blanket explanation for the practices held within the temple were nicely summed up in that they kept the Law of Moses. That’s it. Nothing else. Smith never ventured further other than an altar was made whereby sacrifice and prayer are offered up to the Lord.

This thread is all about BASE BUILDING CONSTRUCTION of the temple and how Smith avoided that and was caught messing with things he knew nothing about. We caught Smith, playing with things he knew nothing about and acting like he could write history when in fact he was ignorant and should have stuck with a simple plot. I’m afraid Cowdery was not able to catch him in the act and say, “Hey, Joseph, I don’t think those guys could have built a stone building like that all by themselves.”

There is NOTHING that can substitute building a temple that will last for hundreds of years other than hewn stone blocks, set in place, meticulously, tightly, and perfectly in place. Mud bricks won’t do. Wood won’t do.

It’s set in stone.