“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

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Shulem
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:31 pm
That may be true, Shulem, but you should know that I do not consider later Joseph Smith to be an unimpeachable witness or reliable interpreter of the early Joseph Smith. Apologists like to insist that, but I think that is methodologically problematic.

I agree, especially about evolving doctrine and theology whereby Smith was progressive. However, it’s reasonable to think that Smith had the same idea of the temple of Nephi when he dictated the original story to Oliver and then later brought it up again in the Times and Seasons from an archeological standpoint. But in no case, was Smith wanting to get into specifics and left off from giving details. He did not want to discuss the construction of Nephi’s temple other than it was strongly reminiscent of Solomon’s temple. The Book of Mormon account did not want to get into anything having to do with the structure of the temple or what went on inside pertaining to the Law of Moses. Basically, we are told it was a place of teaching, learning, and gathering. The precious materials that were not to be found upon the land were all the finer things mentioned in the biblical account that could not have existed or been available to the Nephites at that time as they were just getting started. Later, the renovation of the temple (or a rebuilding as you suggested earlier), the long established Nephites would have had a full spectrum of all precious things under king Noah’s reign.

I think if Smith had given serious thought later on during his prophetic career in Nauvoo while dealing with all the problems of building the Nauvoo temple, he would have realized that there was no way the Nephite family could have worked stone to any degree as the Jews did in Jerusalem. The Kirtland temple was an eye-opener for Smith but the Nauvoo temple was an utter disaster. He just couldn’t get the job done and failed. His successors had to pick up the pieces and finish it before leaving Nauvoo for good.

TIMES AND SEASONS, Oct 1842 wrote:The committee find themselves very much perplexed in consequence of the brethren not coming forward as usual from their different wards, to perform their tenth of labor. They state that they cannot get sufficient stone quarried to supply the stone cutters at the Temple, and that some of them have been obliged to quit work in consequence, and that unless strenuous exertions are immediatley made, and the brethren come up promptly to their duty, the work will be greatly retarded, and perhaps have to stop; at all events the stone cutters will have to stop unless they get an immediate supply of stone. Brethren, such things ought not to be; “let us not be weary in well doing, for we shall reap in due time, if we faint not.” We have commenced a good work—we have been zealously engaged in it—we have spent a great deal of labor, and toil, and our expectations have been great when we have reflected upon the blessings that would flow to us through that medium. Let us begin this next week and continue our labors “until the topstone shall be raised with shoutings of grace! grace unto it!” The committee state that if they have a sufficiency of stone quarried, they can not only be progressing with the work this fall, but the stone cutters can be employed all the winter, and thus have a great quantity of hewn stone ready to commence with as soon as the spring opens which will greatly facilitate the progress of the work.

In any case, this thread has essentially become a two for one deal. First, the Nephites couldn’t have built a temple with stone. Second, the modern Church today is propitiating propaganda to advance their cause in promoting faith in demonstrating that Nephi’s temple was built with stone. At least we agree on the latter.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Kishkumen »

I can agree that the Book of Mormon is not a history of actual events so the material of the temple is really immaterial. hehe. I can also agree that the LDS Church treats its texts and past in ways that are inaccurate and propagandistic.
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“After the manner of”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 5:55 pm
Yeah, I just think you are making too big of a deal out of this. "After the manner" is kind of a vague statement. You're putting too much weight on a narrow reading of all of this, and in the process losing experienced readers. After the manner could be "in the style of," or "according to the geometrical principles of," or any number of things. I don't think it is necessary to suppose that Nephi and family literally build a full-size replica of Solomon's temple.

I would like to substitute the phrase “after the manner of” with several synonyms from the thesaurus to aid us in better understanding the intended meaning in which it was used.

And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of ACCORDING TO the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Here are other synonyms plugged in to help better understand the phrase and “the manner of the construction” of Nephi’s temple:

“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of AS PER the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of AS SPECIFIED BY the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN ACCORDANCE WITH the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN CONFORMITY WITH the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of CONFORMING TO the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of CONSISTENT WITH the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN PROPORTION TO the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN KEEPING WITH the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of COMPATIBLE WITH the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN RELATION TO the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN ACCORDS WITH the temple of Solomon”
“And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of IN THE MANNER OF the temple of Solomon”

I think we can plug the same synonyms into Nephi’s statement about making swords after the manner of the sword of Laban to prove the type of construction and material used to duplicate the steel sword.

“And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords”
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Moksha »

Image
Laban's Sword and "after the manner of" Laban's Sword
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Fri May 21, 2021 9:46 pm
Image
Laban's Sword and "after the manner of" Laban's Sword

THANK YOU for sharing this example, Moksha. Yes, they would have patterned the swords after the one they were duplicating. Laban’s sword was the master in which they were making copies the best they could. They would forge the steel accordingly and make the groves and cuts in fashion like the master. Thickness, curve, balance, and general design of the new swords would be constructed after the manner of the sword they were imitating. Laban’s sword was made of the most precious steel being exceedingly fine in workmanship consisting of a pure gold hilt. But the Nephites were limited in precious metals which were not to be found on the land at that time, wherefore, they could not be forged like unto Laban’s sword but the manner of construction was like unto Laban’s sword; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine, no doubt.
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Steel for steel and stone for stone!!

Post by Shulem »

2 Nephi 5:14 (sword making) wrote:And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords
2 Nephi 5:16 (temple making) wrote:And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Plug the terminology in and presto!

Kishkumen, this ones for you:

“And I, Nephi, did FORGE A SWORD; and I did construct it after the manner of the SWORD OF LABAN save it were not built of so many precious METALS; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be FORGED like unto LABAN'S SWORD. But the manner of the construction was like unto the SWORD OF LABAN; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.”

:D

Still not convinced?
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It’s basic math

Post by Shulem »

Temple Building Formula

Temple = a
Stone = b
Construct = c
Manner of = d
Exceedingly fine = e

a = b + (cd) + e

Sword Forging Formula

Sword = a
Metal = b
Construct = c
Manner of = d
Exceedingly fine = e

a = b + (cd) + e


0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10....
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“Modeled after Solomon’s temple”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:15 pm
But the Book of Mormon does not say that the Nephite temple rivaled Solomon's temple, only that it was modeled after Solomon's temple in some unspecified way.

Ah, the joy of a mystery! Modeled how and with what?

mod·el

verb
past tense: modeled; past participle: modeled

1. fashion or shape (a three-dimensional figure or object) in a malleable material such as clay or wax.
"use the icing to model a house"

2. use (a system, procedure, etc.) as an example to follow or imitate.
"the research method will be modeled on previous work"

I think we can safely say that the temple of Nephi was not made of malleable material such as clay or wax and was therefore not modeled in that respect. But the temple was fashioned and it was shaped into a three-dimensional object, but in what manner and with what material? The Nephites had a system and procedure in which to devise their plan in modeling the temple -- they used Solomon’s temple as the model in which to imitate and the brass plates gave the general dimensions of the whole design. Thus, the temple of Nephi was modeled after the temple of Solomon.

Modeled how and with what? Stone, of course. But one might argue that verse sixteen never mentions stone, only that the temple was constructed in some unspecified manner. But that’s nonsense because verse 14 doesn’t mention metal (steel) in which the swords were fashioned. You have to go back to the original story in 1 Nephi 4:9 to learn that the sword was made of precious steel. Likewise, you have to go back to the original story in 1 Nephi 4:4,5,24,27 to recall that walls were made of stone whereby the walls surrounding Jerusalem were walls of stone.
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Daniel C. Peterson

Post by Shulem »

Daniel C. Peterson wrote: Seeming problems in the Book of Mormon often dissolve when we attempt to find out what the text actually says, which is not always what we initially imagine it to say. What does it mean to be built “after the manner of the temple of Solomon”? I submit that it means to be patterned after, to have the same general layout as Solomon’s temple, without necessarily being on the same scale. And since we know that smaller temples did in fact exist in ancient Israel, there seems no real reason to assume, without evidence, that one could not have existed among the Nephites.

Is the Book of Mormon True?: Notes on the Debate

Although what you submit, Daniel, is reasonable and certainly what we might expect, but Nephi did not actually say he was reducing the size or scaling down the dimensions of the structure. He never said that! That is something you infer in order to make it seem plausible that a small group of rag-tag Nephite band of wonderers could settle down and build a structure of that type but on a smaller scale. But the record does not say the original building size was reduced or that Solomon’s plans were being altered. Nephi did not allude to the idea that he was altering the base architectural plan of Solomon’s temple as recorded on the brass plates. What he said is that he was using cheaper materials and thus having to omit items and features of the Jewish temple design from the Nephite temple design because those materials were unavailable to him. Nothing was ever mentioned about REDUCED size. That is an LDS apologetic inference in order to save the story and try and match it with another account of Jews in the Old World who built smaller temples for their own purposes other than the one at the capitol, Solomon’s temple.

Read the text carefully, Daniel, and come to terms with what Nephi actually said and not what it takes to make the story come true from an apologetic point of view. Open your eyes and mind and read the text from a scholarly point of view rather than an apologetic viewpoint that is entrapped within the box in which you are imprisoned.
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“Build buildings”

Post by Shulem »

Joseph Smith dictated stories as he imagined them and included bits and details as he understood things and expressed them in a manner he thought best. The Book of Mormon mentions multiple temples but nothing is said about them being made of stone, including Nephi’s temple which I’ve been hammering in this thread. In fact, stone construction is not specifically defined or mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon! Why? Because Smith told his stories under the impression that it’s assumed that buildings naturally consist of many kinds of materials including stone and it may simply be that it did not occur to him to mention stone. Perhaps it just didn’t register in his brain to talk about stone construction! But we do get this: “And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.”

Later, as their civilization began to flourish, Jarom states that full-fledged construction was well underway: “And we multiplied exceedingly, and spread upon the face of the land, and became exceedingly rich in gold, and in silver, and in precious things, and in fine workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel.”

But note it well, no mention of stone is specifically mentioned. Why? Because Smith didn’t think it necessary or he just didn’t think about it. But it’s entirely reasonable that the Nephites were building with stone at that time to include dwellings and walls. We get the impression that stone buildings were part of the ruins of the ancient Jaredites when the Nephites “discovered a land which was covered with bones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind.” (Mosiah 8:8) Ruins of buildings of every kind will certainly include stone although stone is not specifically mentioned. Smith made it a habit to omit stone construction while defining building construction. It’s interesting that wood and cement are specifically mentioned later in Helaman 3:9,11, but not stone. Nonetheless, other examples are given that certainly suggest stone:

1) “And we began to build buildings, and to repair the walls of the city, yea, even the walls of the city of Lehi-Nephi, and the city of Shilom.” (Mosiah 9:8)

2) “And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood . . . many buildings to be built in the land Shilom;” (Mosiah 11:8,13)

3) “And they pitched their tents, and began to till the ground, and began to build buildings; yea, they were industrious, and did labor exceedingly.” Mosiah 23:5

Now, to prove that Joseph Smith assumed stone was part of Book of Mormon construction we only need read Nephi’s prophecy that buildings presumable made of stone will fall upon the people when Christ comes to destroy the wicked:

2 Nephi 26:5 wrote:And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them, and whirlwinds shall carry them away, and buildings shall fall upon them and crush them to pieces and grind them to powder.

Buildings consisting of wood, cement, and *stone* will fall on the people; bear in mind that it’s heavy stone that is capable of grinding something into powder! Hence, the key words, “crush” and “grind” serve to show that buildings made of stone were collapsing on the people.

The purpose of this post is to reinforce the concept that Smith assumed that stone was part of the construction process, to include Nephi’s temple.
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