“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Brack wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:18 pm
But the Book of Mormon doesn't state that there were "others" after they arrived, and the Nephites are described as a "lonesome and a solemn people" within the text of the Book of Mormon. (See Jacob 7:26) The current FAIR response on Nephi's temple doesn't have the link to "Book of Mormon demographics" on this. Here is the current FAIR response to this.

I wholeheartedly concur with what you said. The text of the Book of Mormon clearly shows that Nephi, Sam, Jacob, and Joseph, separated themselves from their other brethren (Laman & Lamuel) and began a dynasty as a group of people who had no contact with other people other than the contention/war between Nephi’s family and the his brethren in which he fled from. The key word is “lonesome”.

Jacob 7:26 wrote:And it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old; and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi, wherefore, I conclude this record, declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge, by saying that the time passed away with us, and also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream, we being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers, cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation, in a wilderness, and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions; wherefore, we did mourn out our days.


It’s also important to note that the various family lineages of *all* those involved in the story are listed in their entirety. There is nothing about another group of people who could have assisted in building the temple. The Nephites were a lonesome people who were under the sole administration of a single family ruler whereby Jacob said, “For I, Jacob, and my brother Joseph had been consecrated priests and teachers of this people, by the hand of Nephi.”

Jacob 1:13 wrote:Now the people which were not Lamanites were Nephites; nevertheless, they were called Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites.

That’s it, there was nobody else to speak of.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:28 pm
I think it is possible that the first temple was a humble wooden structure that was later replaced by a stone structure.

What possible reference or text in the Book of Mormon would lead you to believe that Nephi built a humble wooden structure to compare with Solomon’s temple? Exterior walls of wood?

Solomon built a stone house and then used lavish wood for the inner walls.

1 Kings 6:15 wrote:And he built the walls of the house within with boards of cedar, both the floor of the house, and the walls of the ceiling: and he covered them on the inside with wood, and covered the floor of the house with planks of fir.

So, what you’re proposing is that the inner and outer walls of Nephi’s temple consisted chiefly of wood? If that were the case, don’t you think Nephi would have said something to that effect? Don’t you think that Nephi would have at least mentioned that he was going to substitute stone for wood? Isn’t it fair to say that a wood house is nothing like a stone house? How can you construct a wood house after the manner in which one constructs a stone house? The manner of construction have different methods and results. If Nephi’s temple was like Solomon’s temple then they had to be built of similar materials after the same manner of construction. That is exactly what Nephi described but he does make it clear that he didn’t use precious materials had in Solomon’s temple because they weren’t available. But there is plenty of stone available and Nephi made no mention of such shortages.

And what about the foundation? The foundation of Solomon’s temple was made of massive stone! Did not Nephi construct his foundation after the manner of the temple of Solomon? If the manner of the construction of Nephi’s foundation was like unto Solomon’s, then it had to be stone. What of the stone? The stone is the very foundation of the temple!

No wonder Jacob said: “I come UP into the temple this day that I might declare unto you the word of God.”

Up, up, up the stairs we go until we come to... the tunnel!

:shock:
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Brack wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:18 pm
Here is the current FAIR response to this.
Nephi records that after their separation from the Lamanites, his people built a temple "after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things" (2 Nephi 5:16). Smaller temples patterned after the temple of Solomon existed in ancient Israel at the time of Lehi in areas distant from Jerusalem. Israeli archaeologist Avraham Negev commented on one of these temples: "The most remarkable discovery at Arad is the temple which occupied the north-western corner of the citadel. . . . Its orientation, general plan and contents, especially the tabernacle, are similar to the Temple of Solomon."4 In other words, Nephi's construction of a simpler version of Solomon's temple in a remote location once he had established his people in a permanent city was not a unique event in Jewish history, but rather an expected occurrence, a fact of which Joseph Smith and his contemporaries (including especially his critic Alexander Campbell), lacking the aid of modern archaeology, would certainly have been unaware.

Book of Mormon defenders are definitely going to want to downsize the Nephite temple and claim that it was built like one of the other mini-temples. But the fact remains, Nephi had the brass plates and the account in Kings gives the exact dimensions and math on how the temple was constructed regarding size and proportion. So that is *all* Nephi had to go on while drafting his own plans to include laying the foundation in preparation for walls.

So, what is Nephi to do to make his job easier? He could cut dimensions in half in order to downsize the temple and maintain similar design “after the manner” of Solomon’s construction. But even if he cuts the job in half he’s still left with having to lay a massive stone foundation with substantial stone walls and a ceiling to be set in place at a dangerous height. None of that is an easy task. It would take a great many skilled workmen working full time to create such a building. That is a luxury Nephi did not have.

It seems that the most correct of any book on earth is really leaving some people hanging.
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Stone foundation

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 6:50 pm
And what about the foundation? The foundation of Solomon’s temple was made of massive stone! Did not Nephi construct his foundation after the manner of the temple of Solomon? If the manner of the construction of Nephi’s foundation was like unto Solomon’s, then it had to be stone. What of the stone? The stone is the very foundation of the temple!

No wonder Jacob said: “I come UP into the temple this day that I might declare unto you the word of God.”

I like to read into the nuances wherein it’s possible to imagine what Smith was expressing in his story. Jacob said “I come up into the temple.” What exactly does that imply? Does it refer to just elevation from a geographical point of view like traveling from one part of a village to go up to higher ground? It seems that we are given the same kind of reference to the temple of Zarahemla wherein the people of that land also “go up” to the temple: “all the people who were in the land of Zarahemla that thereby they might gather themselves together, to go up to the temple to hear the words.” Thus, it seems that elevation herein is somewhat localized with the temple being the highpoint in the whole area.

On the other hand, here are several examples of going “up” that pay definite reference to elevation from a geographical point of view whereby distance in conjunction with elevation lead to the destination. Note particularly that the last example (6) provides the counter direction, “come down”.

1. “the people who went up to dwell in the land of Lehi-Nephi, or in the city of Lehi-Nephi”
2. “go up to the land of Lehi-Nephi . . . . that on the morrow they started to go up”
3. “they came up upon the north of the land of Shilom, with their numerous hosts . . . . that we did go up to battle against the Lamanites; and I, even I, in my old age, did go up to battle against the Lamanites. And it came to pass that we did go up in the strength of the Lord”
4. “let his sons go up among the Lamanites to preach the word . . . . they took their journey into the wilderness to go up to preach the word among the Lamanites”
5. “let us go up upon the mountains and into the wilderness, that we may fall upon the robbers . . . . The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them”
6. “Nephites did go up with their armies to battle against the Lamanites, out of the land Desolation” (“And in this year they did come down against the Nephites . . . . Lamanites did come down against the city Desolation”)

So, we clearly see that there is a difference in the “up” whereby one is localized to a small area with elevation and the other is broader wherein elevation is geographical in nature. It seems that Jacob went “up” to the temple because the temple was elevated in the general area or village in which the people of Nephi lived. The same thing applies to the temple in Zarahemla. The temples must not have been far but were fairly central and close whereby the people could gather to the temple. Perhaps there were temple mounts like the one in Jerusalem? The point being elevation in this case seems to imply that the temples were close by and that elevation refers to natural mount and/or raised foundation.

Therefore, based on the nuance, I interpret Jacob going “up” in incline consisting of either a graded elevated natural mount or a significant raised foundation -- or both. Based on everything I’ve presented in this thread; I think it most reasonable to assume the elevated foundation consisted of stone structure in which Jacob went up to enter the temple proper. There must be a stone foundation to support a stone building for a permanent and lasting structure, such as a temple or the House of the Lord.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:28 pm
I think it is possible that the first temple was a humble wooden structure that was later replaced by a stone structure.

Yes, it is possible. But based on the collective evidence that I’ve presented in this thread, it would be very reasonable to conclude that Smith simply thought the Nephites tried to imitate Solomon’s temple the best they could in the manner in which they were allowed using the manpower and materials available to them. Can we agree on that point? Thanks. ;-)

I honestly believe Smith overlooked the full implications of the Nephite family working with stone. Now granted, the story doesn’t specifically mention mason work or hewing stones as it does rather graphically in the biblical account, but keep in mind that Nephi’s description is quite abbreviated. It’s readily apparent that Smith did not want to spend much time describing the construction process or how they went about it because it wasn’t germane to the theme of his story and quite frankly, Smith didn’t know much about construction at that time. Smith’s experience with construction came later when building the Kirtland and Nauvoo temples. Smith was very proud of the Nauvoo temple and claimed it rivaled Solomon’s temple.


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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:06 pm
Yes, it is possible. But based on the collective evidence that I’ve presented in this thread, it would be very reasonable to conclude that Smith simply thought the Nephites tried to imitate Solomon’s temple the best they could in the manner in which they were allowed using the manpower and materials available to them. Can we agree on that point? Thanks. ;-)

I honestly believe Smith overlooked the full implications of the Nephite family working with stone. Now granted, the story doesn’t specifically mention mason work or hewing stones as it does rather graphically in the biblical account, but keep in mind that Nephi’s description is quite abbreviated. It’s readily apparent that Smith did not want to spend much time describing the construction process or how they went about it because it wasn’t germane to the theme of his story and quite frankly, Smith didn’t know much about construction at that time. Smith’s experience with construction came later when building the Kirtland and Nauvoo temples. Smith was very proud of the Nauvoo temple and claimed it rivaled Solomon’s temple.
But the Book of Mormon does not say that the Nephite temple rivaled Solomon's temple, only that it was modeled after Solomon's temple in some unspecified way. I am unconvinced, but I do appreciate your research and efforts to make a case for this. I had not thought of it in this way before, but I do think that the Nephites' decision to build a temple constructed "after the manner of Solomon's temple" is significant for other reasons.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:15 pm
I am unconvinced

You know full well that the Church today presents Nephi’s temple as having been built in stone. Apparently the powers that be that produce modern art and film depicting Nephi’s temple believe it was in fact made of stone. That is what the Church today stands by. The Church therefore seems convinced. You just haven’t been convinced, yet.

:D
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 4:33 pm
You know full well that the Church today presents Nephi’s temple as having been built in stone. Apparently the powers that be that produce modern art and film depicting Nephi’s temple believe it was in fact made of stone. That is what the Church today stands by. The Church therefore seems convinced. You just haven’t been convinced, yet.

:D
Ah, yes, but I don't live by LDS propaganda, Shulem. I examine the evidence for myself.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 5:18 pm
Ah, yes, but I don't live by LDS propaganda, Shulem. I examine the evidence for myself.

Really?

What about Joseph Smith’s propaganda insomuch as he ranted on and on in the Times and Seasons about stone buildings recently discovered down in Central America? He claimed those discoveries provided rock-solid evidence for his Book of Mormon narrative of buildings therein, namely the temple of Nephi which he specifically mentioned at the end of the Extract! I brought that up in an earlier post, here.

You can read the full extract in the Times and Seasons, here.

So you see, the propaganda seems to have started with Joseph Smith, himself -- the author of the Book of Mormon -- the man behind the Nephite curtain. Who better to offer an explanation for what he said?
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Kishkumen »

That may be true, Shulem, but you should know that I do not consider later Joseph Smith to be an unimpeachable witness or reliable interpreter of the early Joseph Smith. Apologists like to insist that, but I think that is methodologically problematic.
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