“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

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TheSonOfKorihor
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by TheSonOfKorihor »

Shulem wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 4:58 pm


Perhaps at some point, Book of Mormon defenders will seriously present the idea that angels came down from heaven and assisted the little family band in building the temple. You know the old absence of evidence argument -- can work both ways. Smith never said anything about angels building the temple. There isn’t a hint or a glimmer that anything like that was part of the mix. But you know apologists, they will fall back on anything to save themselves and defy the critics to prove it didn’t happen.
Honestly as an explanation, I was picturing the meme of the guy from ancient aliens where he has his hands up with the caption that reads “aliens”.

Although who knows, maybe God injected Nephi with the super soldier serum, thereby making Nephi the original Captain America.
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Shulem
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Angel talk

Post by Shulem »

Nephi’s later teachings reveal that his people were hardly witnesses of an angelically constructed temple. The very idea of angels and tongues of angels was something afar off and of a heavenly nature. A spiritual experience with angels was something to be had in the spiritual realm, not so much physical such as man and angels working together building Nephi’s temple. Nephi taught his people that baptism was a prerequisite in order to commune with angels saying, “then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels”. So, speaking in an angel’s tongue required spiritual gifts given only to those who merited those specific blessing through their personal righteousness: “After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels.” Thus we see that the business of speaking in the tongue of angels was a type of promise that the people might look forward to sometime after a rite of passage. One gets the impression that Nephi is telling his people that angelic blessings may be had but it will come in its own time and place. Nothing is said about a common manifestation or the general appearance of angels in the presence of all the people.

Then, Nephi, in his next breath reminds his people that they may someday speak in the tongue of angels: “Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?” But note, he says absolutely nothing about angels already being among them or manifesting themselves while building the temple. Everything Nephi teaches about angels is on a spiritual plane having little if anything to do with the physical.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Angel talk

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:15 pm
Nephi’s later teachings reveal that his people were hardly witnesses of an angelically constructed temple. The very idea of angels and tongues of angels was something afar off and of a heavenly nature. A spiritual experience with angels was something to be had in the spiritual realm, not so much physical such as man and angels working together building Nephi’s temple. Nephi taught his people that baptism was a prerequisite in order to commune with angels saying, “then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels”. So, speaking in an angel’s tongue required spiritual gifts given only to those who merited those specific blessing through their personal righteousness: “After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels.” Thus we see that the business of speaking in the tongue of angels was a type of promise that the people might look forward to sometime after a rite of passage. One gets the impression that Nephi is telling his people that angelic blessings may be had but it will come in its own time and place. Nothing is said about a common manifestation or the general appearance of angels in the presence of all the people.

Then, Nephi, in his next breath reminds his people that they may someday speak in the tongue of angels: “Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?” But note, he says absolutely nothing about angels already being among them or manifesting themselves while building the temple. Everything Nephi teaches about angels is on a spiritual plane having little if anything to do with the physical.

Yeah, sorry, Shulem, but you are just plain wrong on this one. Everyone knows that angels help find the location of the temple, assist in its construction, and then serve as guardians and witnesses when the building is complete and dedicated. You can't expect Nephi to mention every last detail in his account. He provides enough clues to let the discerning reader know that angels were involved in the building of the temple. What Nephi is talking about his his "tongue of angels" is angelomorphy wherein people become like angels. They don't have to be angels to work with angels or have angels work with them.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Shulem
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I Jacob

Post by Shulem »

Jacob in his later years takes the reigns just before Nephi passes.

Jacob 1 wrote:1 For behold, it came to pass that fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven.

Jacob clearly states his intention that the record should testify of the most important spiritual things to happen to his people.

Jacob 1 wrote:2 And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi.

Jacob is more than willing to record the most important events.

Jacob 1 wrote:4 And if there were preaching which was sacred, or revelation which was great, or prophesying, that I should engraven the heads of them upon these plates, and touch upon them as much as it were possible, for Christ’s sake, and for the sake of our people.

Then, Jacob mentions the temple. There is nothing said regarding it being built by miraculous means or through angelic visitation! If ever a time to bring it up, this would be it.

Jacob 1 wrote:17 Wherefore I, Jacob, gave unto them these words as I taught them in the temple, having first obtained mine errand from the Lord.

No angels, period.
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Kishkumen
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Kishkumen »

Nope! People who know about temples don’t need to be given all those details. That’s like saying that anything not on the page couldn’t have been part of the building process or materials. That’s silly. In any case, people were curious about the tongue of angels because they heard it during the construction process. You just need to know more of the background of what you are reading, Shulem.

https://latterdaysaintmag.com/temple-a ... -help-you/
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Shulem
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Re: Angel talk

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Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 8:26 pm
Yeah, sorry, Shulem, but you are just plain wrong on this one. Everyone knows that angels help find the location of the temple, assist in its construction, and then serve as guardians and witnesses when the building is complete and dedicated. You can't expect Nephi to mention every last detail in his account. He provides enough clues to let the discerning reader know that angels were involved in the building of the temple. What Nephi is talking about his his "tongue of angels" is angelomorphy wherein people become like angels. They don't have to be angels to work with angels or have angels work with them.

Brother Kishkumen,

Have you forgotten when Jacob was old, he was confronted with the first antiChrist of the Book of Mormon, a man who challenged everything being taught? Indeed, you will recall Sherem, he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people. You will recall that he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts. How could Sherem lead many of the people away from believing the teachings of Nephi & Jacob? How could he have such success in doing that if angels had previously manifested themselves before the people in helping them build the temple?

Do ye not recall the words of Jacob who refused to be shaken by Sherem’s flattering words of denial? Do ye not recall that Jacob claimed to have had been ministered to by angels and therefore could not be persuaded to deny the gospel? Sherem was unsuccessful in persuading Jacob because he had actually seen angels:

Jacob 7 wrote:5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken.

You’ll note that it was Jacob that had “seen angels” and that angels “ministered unto” Jacob and NOT to the people in general such as Sherem. How else could Sherem have had such great success if everyone had seen angels build the temple and proclaim that Nephi & Jacob were inspired spiritual leaders? Sherem approached Jacob saying, “Show me a sign by this power of the Holy Ghost, in the which ye know so much.” Why say that if he had already seen angels through Jacob’s ministry? It’s apparent that Sherem was challenging Jacob’s claims of angelic visitation.

Further, how is it that a man (Sherem) living in Jacob’s time was not aware of angels ministering to the people while building the temple? Where was Sherem when the temple was being built? According to the story, Sherem began to relent and confessed the Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost, and the ministering of angels. Sherem feared that he had committed the unpardonable sin which is indicative of him being a baptized member of the community. So, Sherem would have seen angels if there were any angels to be seen and he wouldn’t have had such great success in turning the people away had they seen angels too.

According to the story, the exclusive ministering of angels was given to Nephi & Jacob. Everyone else was just hoping they too could share in the process through baptism and the Holy Ghost.
TheSonOfKorihor
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by TheSonOfKorihor »

Shulem I had never considered angels having their own language, or at the very least when a prophet spoke in the tongue of angels it was as if they were lifted up to a higher spiritual plane where that understanding was just given to them.

But isn’t the matter of angelic help a moot point anyway given that angels didn’t have a body of flesh and bone up to that point seeing as how there were no resurrected beings until after Christ? Unless they were helping with the administrative work of building the temple.

As far as I can tell, unless the big man himself came down and helped, or Jehovah spoke it into existence as he did with the earth, there couldn’t have been any heavenly help. But even still those types of events would surely have been recorded.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

TheSonOfKorihor wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:12 pm
But isn’t the matter of angelic help a moot point anyway given that angels didn’t have a body of flesh and bone up to that point seeing as how there were no resurrected beings until after Christ? Unless they were helping with the administrative work of building the temple.

As far as I can tell, unless the big man himself came down and helped, or Jehovah spoke it into existence as he did with the earth, there couldn’t have been any heavenly help. But even still those types of events would surely have been recorded.

Mormonism teaches that nobody except for Heavenly Father had a glorified body of flesh and bone prior to the resurrection in AD 33. TheSonOfKorihor is correct in stating that angels did not have bodies of flesh and bone unless they were angels from a yonder heaven having lived, died, and were resurrected on another planet other than earth. Such beings are said to radiate brightness like the sun and their presence is as everlasting burnings. So, that seems pretty unlikely. Both the Son of God and the Holy Ghost were spirits when Nephi’s temple was being built.

Perhaps, brother Kishkumen can enlighten us regarding how the angels built the temple of Nephi? Did they cause the saw to move back and forth though levitation and the power of sheer thought? Did they cause the stones to raise themselves miraculously in the air by levitation and set themselves perfectly in place? Is that how it was done? Angels (spirits) floating about in the wind moving the elements by snapping their fingers?

There are so many problems with this scenario that it doesn’t get past square one. But then again, Book of Mormon defenders could pose the Translated Beings Temple Builder Theory. That might work. Translated beings such as Elijah came down and assisted Nephi and brought tools too!

Oh my, maybe the Book of Mormon really is true?

:?
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Shulem
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Shulem »

TheSonOfKorihor wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:12 pm
But even still those types of events would surely have been recorded.

Exactly. Had it been the case that angels helped build the temple of Nephi it would have been mentioned in the story. The people of Nephi would have banded together in totality no longer having faith in what they were doing because the visitation of heavenly beings in itself is enough to cause faith to vanish away and become a pure knowledge. But the people were told to have faith and seek to acquire spiritual gifts such as the tongue of angels. Men like Sherem would not have had any success in persuading people to distrust Nephi & Jacob.
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Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Post by Kishkumen »

Shulem, old friend, surely you can’t be serious in arguing that anyone who had seen an angel could not have been subsequently led astray. Where has the vision of an angel ever been absolute proof against apostasy?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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