“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Walls of the temple

Post by Shulem »

Some 400 years later we are given to believe that the temple of Nephi in the original land of Nephi still stands as would any mighty edifice of that stature and durability. But it would require upkeep and regular maintenance. The well-built shell of a building set in stone (such as Solomon's temple) can last hundreds of years. The city of Nephi had already reached nation state status under Zeniff, perhaps even more so when his wicked son Noah assumed the throne. And it’s this Noah who went to work on the temple with repairs and upgrades:

Mosiah 11 wrote:
10 And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.

Walls of the temple? The same walls that Nephi, did build a temple, and did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon? Those walls, after the manner of the construction that was like unto the temple of Solomon? Yep, it seems it was those walls! And king Noah was going to decorate them to his personal liking. Noah could line the walls with an elaborate spread of wood and of whatever he wanted because he could afford it and lots of precious things were found upon the land at that time!

Mosiah 11 wrote:
8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

9 And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Building Nephi’s temple

Post by Shulem »

Obviously, these are giant polystyrene foam blocks for the latest and greatest church production. At least they aren’t trying to shy away from real stone as if Smith’s Book of Mormon temple was made of mud or brick.

Nephites working on the temple

Image


I'm afraid Nephi's miniature doors hardly compare with the massive doors of Solomon’s temple entrance!


Image


Smile, Nephi!
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Behold Nephi’s temple

Post by Shulem »

Book of Mormon Central wrote:
What the Book of Mormon Teaches Us About the Temple

Near the beginning of the book, Nephi related that one of the actions of his new community was to build a temple in the city of Nephi. This temple in the Land of Nephi was built to look and function like the temple of Solomon in Jerusalem.

Image
How did that little band of people cut, hew, and transport all that stone as well as everything else they had to do just to survive?
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Mormon Fantasy

Post by Shulem »

Image

I, NEPHI, DID BUILD A TEMPLE

Image


It’s like a cartoon for adults who refuse to grow up!
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Flashback to the beginning

Post by Shulem »

Let us depart from Laman & Lemuel and set out to build a great stone temple unto the Lord after the manner of Solomon’s temple in Jerusalem.

Follow me Sam, Jacob, Joseph, Zoram, and any Lamanite stragglers. Do not murmur or show ingratitude. Each of you children will work yourselves to the bone for the rest of your lives cutting stone and transporting them so that your uncles can lift them, one by one to raise the walls of the new temple.

The sisters will bring you food when they are worthy and not bound by Moses’s law of an unclean woman. Let them use lamb’s wool to pad their privates.

Do not murmur!

Image


O Lord, my family will cut and prepare thousands of stones to be brought to this sacred location wherein we can set them to build thy walls, O Lord, and rear up a mighty house after the manner of Solomon’s temple.


Image


Grandfather, grandfather, Jacob sent me to tell you the temple is completed and you must come dedicate it to the Lord.


Image


Oh my back hurts.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

This Is The Place

Post by Shulem »

This is the place where we will build the temple after the manner of Solomon’s in Jerusalem.

Everyone take a break and then it’s time to work.

No murmuring!


Image

Nephi and his family fleeing
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

NEPHICODE

Post by Shulem »

Book of Mormon defender NEPHICODE shares his thoughts in a recent article in excusing the claims made by Nephi in the Book of Mormon by softening the quantity of work required and turning Nephi’s temple into a much smaller project. I'm not saying that Nephi’s structure has to be the exact same size and certainly didn’t have the same precious materials as was had in Jerusalem, but the claim in the Book of Mormon is that it was made after the manner of Solomon’s temple -- exceedingly fine construction, and that necessitates the use of stone blocks for the foundation and the structure itself. This, in and of itself, is out of reach of what the first Nephites could have accomplished so early on after their first migration in seeking independence from their Lamanite brethren.

NEPHICODE wrote:Many critics and even members question the ability of the early Nephites having the time and manpower to build a temple like unto Solomon’s Temple.

The ragtag Nephite family did not have the time and didn't possess the tools in quantity or have the manpower to execute that kind of construction project fulltime while maintaining their regular lives just to survive.

NEPHICODE wrote:Some critics of the Church claim that Nephi’s temple was built “similar in splendor” to Solomon's Temple, directly contradicting Nephi's description. Nephi stated that “could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple” because many of the precious things contained in Solomon's temple “were not to be found upon the land.” Therefore, Nephi himself confirms that his temple was not “similar in splendor” to Solomon's temple. This is a good example of the critics reading the text in the most naïve, most ill-informed way possible

No, it was not similar in splendor. It did not have fir, gold, and other precious materials that were used to furnish and adorn Solomon’s temple. But it did have similar construction and was after the manner of the temple of Solomon being labeled as exceedingly fine, hence, the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon.

NEPHICODE wrote:One should also consider that smaller population would not have needed a massive complex like the temple at Jerusalem anyway. This, by the way, should suggest that Nephi’s temple was not as large and not as massive of a complex, for it would not have been needed.

I agree. The Nephites couldn’t have produced the extensive grounds of the temple mount in moving that much earth and building walls of giant hewn stone would require thousands of workers. What Nephi focused on was the actual temple itself, not the complex! So, I’m not going on about the complex or the mount itself. The temple construction, in and of itself, is an enormous edifice that could never be built by a ragtag family with hungry mouths to feed.

NEPHICODE wrote:On the other hand, the Nephite temple was like Solomon’s temple in its function for religious activity, obviously having a “holy of holies”

Nobody is talking about the function or rituals held within the Nephite temple. You’re trying to get away from Nephi’s original claim that the temple was like Solomon’s temple because it was constructed in like manner, a lofty house of hewn stone! That, in and of itself, disqualifies Nephi’s family in constructing such an edifice. They didn’t have the time or means to build a multistory stone building upon a stone foundation. Never mind the cedar! Never mind the gold! It’s the stones that make Smith’s story an impossible situation.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Pompous General Authority

Post by Shulem »

This is from a talk given by the Assistant Church Historian in General Conference of October 1923:

elder Andrew Jenson wrote:Solomon’s temple was only a small building measuring about 90 feet in length and 30 feet in width and height. Hence, it was not larger than many of our meetinghouses.

But look:

The temple was built of hewn stone and set upon a stone foundation:

Image

elder Andrew Jenson wrote:Next permit me to draw your attention to the Nephites who occupied the land of America. A certain statement made by Nephi and recorded in the Book of Mormon, has caused some criticism or discussion. The Nephites had been in America only a short time, and we estimate that there could not have been more than 300 souls of them altogether at the time that Nephi wrote the following:

STOP! Just stop, please! The historical record can’t baby-boom 300 people in Nephi’s camp after fleeing his brethren. It’s been established by the numbers in the book that Mr. & Mrs. Nephi and kids, Mr. & Mrs. Sam and kids, Mr. & Mrs. Zoram and kids, perhaps Nephi’s sisters, and young brothers Jacob & Joseph, and a few more stragglers at most, were with Nephi when he fled from the face of Laman. That’s it, no more! Perhaps some of Ishmael's children went along but the story relates that his daughters and sons favored Laman -- they loved to party (on the ship) and didn't especially like Nephi later on.

In the end, Nephi ran off with a small band of adults at his side with children and more children on the way. It was a nursery in the making! But not “300 souls”, when Nephi made his next log entry some 20 years later to report on all his happenings.

Jenson then quotes Nephi in the Book of Mormon wherein he claimed to build a temple after the manner of the temple of Solomon and then has the audacity to say:

elder Andrew Jenson wrote:Many of you brethren who are comfortably fixed financially, could, single handed, build a temple like Solomon’s temple with your own means. You might be obliged to follow the example of Nephi in not furnishing the building with so much silver and gold or so many precious things as did Solomon,

No, no, and no! Preparing the foundation and setting stone and building the multilayered structure far exceeds the price of rich Mormons living in Utah. The building was built to the highest standards of construction and quality in shaping and preparing the hewn stone to perfectly set and build a spectacular building. Solomon’s temple was a masterpiece and its construction was world class in itself. Forget the gold, forget all the riches -- the construction of the base building, in and of itself, was a masterpiece fit for a god and a king!!

elder Andrew Jenson wrote:but I venture to say that it was quite possible for a small number of Nephites to erect a temple as large as that erected by Solomon, omitting the costly ornamentations.

Are you sir are a 1920’s moron? It’s impossible for a small group of ragtag runaways to erect a world class stone structure such as Solomon’s temple using the same type of construction and workmanship as the thousands of men who built the foundation and walls of the original native temple.
Last edited by Shulem on Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

It’s the STONE you dummy!

Post by Shulem »

It’s not my problem that Smith failed to understand the enormous undertaking of the Jews in building Solomon’s temple. Obviously, when Smith dictated his story it went way over his head and didn't fathom the true scope and magnitude of the biblical temple. Nephi’s temple couldn't possibly commensurate in any degree with the biblical version in any shape or form. What was Smith thinking? Was he familiar with the biblical account about how the structure was built of hewn stone or was he simply thinking the house consisted only of timber brought from Lebanon such as cedar and fir, and forgot about the hewn stone? Smith did note that Nephi’s temple was not built of so many precious things because they were not to be found upon the land, which is quite understandable. It makes me wonder if Smith figured they used cheaper timber for lumber that was available in their neck of the woods and was negligent in remembering the stone.

Had Smith realized the enormous work in hewing stone and understood the gravity of its use, he might have been less inclined to have Nephi construct a building after the manner of the temple of Solomon. But as it reads in Nephi’s account, the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon, a stone building. The Book of Mormon was written prior to Smith taking up a serious study of the Bible and tendering his new translations. It’s entirely possible that Smith overlooked the stone completely!

What does the Bible say?

1 Kings 5 wrote:
15 And Solomon had threescore and ten thousand that bare burdens, and fourscore thousand hewers in the mountains
1 Kings 5 wrote:
17 And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, and hewed stones, to lay the foundation of the house.

18 And Solomon's builders and Hiram's builders did hew them, and the stonesquarers: so they prepared timber and stones to build the house.
1 Kings 6 wrote:
7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.
1 Kings 7 wrote:
9 All these were of costly stones, according to the measures of hewed stones, sawed with saws, within and without, even from the foundation unto the coping, and so on the outside toward the great court.

10 And the foundation was of costly stones, even great stones, stones of ten cubits, and stones of eight cubits.

11 And above were costly stones, after the measures of hewed stones, and cedars.

12 And the great court round about was with three rows of hewed stones, and a row of cedar beams, both for the inner court of the house of the Lord, and for the porch of the house.

The bottom line: Stone is stone and it has to be cut and hewn no matter what kind of stone it is or where it is quarried. That is an enormous undertaking in any degree and could not have been accomplished by Nephi’s clansmen.

It would be a believable story had Nephi mentioned building a temple constructed in the form and material of something other than hewn stone. But according to the beginning of the story, Nephi was from Jerusalem, and must have made pilgrimages to the temple as a young man. He would have been familiar with the stone structure but far less familiar with the interior because that was a secure area and restricted.

Nephi’s words stand on their own; it’s hard to imagine his words being edited by Mormon or Moroni when he’s speaking in the first person repeatedly throughout his writings:

“This is according to the account of Nephi; or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record.”

2 Nephi 5 wrote:
14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Introducing the EXPERT witness

Post by Shulem »

I would like to present an expert witness to clarify the wording given by Nephi about building Solomon's temple. I consider this expert to be final and authoritative in defining exactly what Nephi meant. But first, let’s quote Nephi, yet again for reference.

2 Nephi 5 wrote:
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did CONSTRUCT IT AFTER THE MANNER of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the MANNER OF THE CONSTRUCTION WAS LIKE UNTO the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Now, I present my expert witness, none other than the man himself, the true author of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith:

TPJS 251 wrote:If there was anything great or good in the world, it came from God. The construction of the first vessel was given to Noah, by revelation. The design of the ark was given by God, “a pattern of heavenly things.” The learning of the Egyptians, and their knowledge of astronomy was no doubt taught them by Abraham and Joseph, as their records testify, who received it from the Lord. The art of working in brass, silver, gold, and precious stones, was taught by revelation, in the wilderness. The architectural designs of the Temple at Jerusalem, together with its ornaments and beauty, were given of God. Wisdom to govern the house of Israel was given to Solomon, and the Judges of Israel; and if he had always been their king, and they subject to his mandate, and obedient to his laws, they would still have been a great and mighty people—the rulers of the universe, and the wonder of the world.

Smith’s three-fold descriptive of Noah’s ark is “construction” in the “design” that is a “pattern” given by God.

1) construction
2) design
3) pattern

Then, Smith leads directly into the physical concept and construction of Solomon’s temple in being like Noah’s ark, given of God, whereby the architectural designs are given according to the construction, design, and pattern of God!

So when Joseph Smith (speaking through Nephi) says, “I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”, he means literally that the architectural design was according to the construction, design, and pattern of God; “whereby the manner of the construction was like unto” Solomon’s temple.

So, defenders of the Book of Mormon today can say whatever they want and come up with whatever excuses suit their personal fancies but they cannot circumvent Smith’s intent and what he actually claimed and maintained thereafter.
Post Reply