“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

[Shulem]

Dearest Kishkumen,

You’ll recall that it was YOU who introduced the dazzling revelation on the old defunct Mormon Discussions board, a thread titled “Possible Modern Source for the Book of Mormon” which connects key elements from the the 1819 book “LATE WAR” by Gilbert J. Hunt., directly with the Book of Mormon. It was a marvelous find on your part! It’s been suggested that the following snippet about torpedo devices used in the novel being partly made of brass, a curious workmanship -- may have influenced Smith’s own idea of the Liahona which was a “curious workmanship” consisting of a brass ball having two spindles which acted as directors or more literally, a compass:

Now these wonderful torpedoes were made partly of brass and partly of iron, and were cunningly contrived with curious works, like unto a clock; and as it were a large ball.

The Late War balls were a curious work stuffed with powder to act as a bomb and the Book of Mormon ball was a director to point the way that leads to life! Both were curious works and served a definite purpose but having opposite results -- death vs. life. Aha, the very story of the Book of Mormon which loved to play on the opposites.

I can’t say for sure if the curious ball in Late War truly influenced Smith but it wouldn’t surprise me if it did. I think he gleaned information from various sources and used it for his own purposes in inventing stories for the Book of Mormon, Book of Moses, and Book of Abraham. Indeed, the spindles of a clock which are used to point the way and direct time itself vs. the spindles of a bomb used to clock a ship and blow everything up!

So, who was it that laid the ball (torpedo) in the Nephite camp? It was Joseph Smith. He did it.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, that’s true! So many things go into the composition of an interesting book like the Book of Mormon. The Late War is one of the influences, yes. And, it’s intriguing that Smith may have deliberately connected an angelic gift of divine technology to a weapon that belonged to his own day. The misuse of divine gifts for destructive purposes is part of what the gifts of the Watchers were about.

[Shulem]

Oh, by the way, angels might build tech for humans, dear Shulem, not because they need it themselves. Anyone who knows their para-biblical lore knows that the Watchers, or Nephilim, came down to earth and taught humankind the technology that led them astray and brought upon them the wrath of God in the form of a flood that cleansed the earth.

There are also theories that aliens built the pyramids and lest we forget about Atlantis! But this of course is outside the bounds of Nephi’s temple building project.

“Nephilim?”

You know that Smith was an avid fan of the Adam Clarke Commentary and that might well be where he got his idea for the character Nephi, who was exceedingly young, nevertheless being LARGE in stature!

So what did Adam Clarke say about the so-called Giants recorded in the Genesis account? No doubt, Smith and Cowdery knew the story and the definition, per Clarke.

Genesis 6:4. There were giants in the earth — נפלים nephilim . . . . term giants, without having any reference to the meaning of the word, which we generally conceive to signify persons of enormous stature.

So, there you have it. Nephilim in association with men of enormous stature or Nephi being large in stature. Many of the names Smith used for his story of Lehi have been ripped from the Bible in some form or fashion. It appears that Nephi’s name was also taken from the Bible with a little help from Adam Clarke.

[Kishkumen]

Yes! Very good, Shulem. Large in stature. Mighty men of old. Giant lore is important in the Book of Mormon. This is true.

[Shulem]

Did the Nephites bring any members of the Masonic stone workers guild with them on their voyage? What about abandoned metal forges from the time of the Third Age Dwarves?

These are the 20 main characters listed in the story that sailed the ocean blue to come to the promised land:

Lehi
Sariah
Laman
Lemuel
Sam
Nephi
Jacob
Joseph
Lehi’s daughter #1
Lehi’s daughter #2
Zoram
Ishmael
Ishmael’s wife
Ishmael’s son #1
Ishmael’s son #2
Ishmael’s daughter #1
Ishmael’s daughter #2
Ishmael’s daughter #3
Ishmael’s daughter #4
Ishmael’s daughter #5


The story does not say whether there were other characters enlisted to make the voyage to the promised land and it doesn’t list children had by the main characters. Smith’s accounting does however seem conclusive in listing the adults of the story and the inclusion of Zoram gives much detail. It seems likely that if there were other important adult characters to make the voyage that Smith would have mentioned them in the story to include their contributions or liabilities.

An adequate presentation in this thread has shown that there simply was not enough adults to have accompanied Nephi in building a temple made of stone which later received renovation and repair under king Noah’s management “within the walls of the temple” hundreds of years from the time it was originally constructed. (Mosiah 11:10). This proves that the original temple was substantially made of stone in thickness to last hundreds of years. There is no way on God’s green earth that Nephi and his little band constructed a building of that nature and magnitude. It is impossible. It is an anachronism of biblical proportion, literally.

[Kishkumen]

Yeah, I just think you are making too big of a deal out of this. "After the manner" is kind of a vague statement. You're putting too much weight on a narrow reading of all of this, and in the process losing experienced readers. After the manner could be "in the style of," or "according to the geometrical principles of," or any number of things. I don't think it is necessary to suppose that Nephi and family literally build a full-size replica of Solomon's temple.

[Shulem]

8 And it came to pass that king Noah built many elegant and spacious buildings; and he ornamented them with fine work of wood, and of all manner of precious things, of gold, and of silver, and of iron, and of brass, and of ziff, and of copper;

Now we have the trappings of a nation state and a civilization capable of building massive stone structures. I can completely buy the story, now! Enough time has passed and the civilization has the means and organization to build whole cities and enormous projects that require massive manpower and mechanical contractions or means in which to move the elements about and in place.

9 And he also built him a spacious palace, and a throne in the midst thereof, all of which was of fine wood and was ornamented with gold and silver and with precious things.

It’s natural that a king having the means will provide for himself a spacious palace and a throne in which to show himself off to his subjects. Maintain power by displaying wealth and prominence with gold, silver, and precious gems. The story seems perfectly fine.

Now comes the part about the renovation of Nephi’s temple:

10 And he also caused that his workmen should work all manner of fine work within the walls of the temple, of fine wood, and of copper, and of brass.

That is the KEY word! Who was it that performed fine works within the walls of the temple to include working with wood, copper, and brass?

“WORKMEN”!

You can bet it took a lot of workmen to make the needed repairs and upgrades to the already existing shell of a temple. The original shell in stone was intact but the finer parts and details within were gutted and redone. That’s typical in any reconstruction of a stone building of this magnitude.

But the key word is, “workmen”, and it took many, many, workmen to perform this work! But it would have required just as many or more to build the original structure and “workmen” were in very short supply during Nephi’s reign. He didn’t even have his brethren Laman & Lemuel to lend a hand and probably not the sons of Ishmael whom he didn’t get along with. So, Nephi had Sam, Jacob, Joseph, Zoram, and a bunch of kids and mothers to help build a massive stone temple along with all their other duties in maintaining homesteads and rearing families in the raw frontier.

You see, Joseph Smith messed up by thinking to include the temple of Solomon & polygamy into his story. I wonder if the distraction in thinking about David & Solomon’s polygamy caused him to overlook the fact that this temple was not going to fit into his story. Smith jumped the gun!

[Shulem]

Yeah, I just think you are making too big of a deal out of this. "After the manner" is kind of a vague statement. You're putting too much weight on a narrow reading of all of this, and in the process losing experienced readers. After the manner could be "in the style of," or "according to the geometrical principles of," or any number of things. I don't think it is necessary to suppose that Nephi and family literally build a full-size replica of Solomon's temple.

“After the manner of”, is a precise statement in simply stating that it was the same kind and type without providing details. One may refer to the Bible for details regarding the scope of work in the building that was reproduced or in which the Nephites built a similar type building after the manner as the one that stands in Jerusalem. But, I grant, the nuances in the story does lead one to expect that it’s not of the same magnitude or size as the Jerusalem temple but one of reduced size, nonetheless, built in the same manner and same kind of construction -- STONE.

That is where the problem lies. There is no way the Nephites were able to cut, hew, move, and set stone blocks in place to form a designed frame in which to decorate the walls of a structure that would stand for hundreds of years. The stone building is outside the bounds of what the Nephite family was capable of doing.

With that said, the temple in Jerusalem was massive! The foundation was massive and the structure itself was massive. Thousands of workmen built the temple of Solomon. To build a temple of that likeness on a smaller scale would still require a massive (healthy) workforce, tools, supplies, and the ability to perform collective engineering and mathematics on a precise scale.

Indeed, the story leads me to believe it was a much smaller building, but that’s not the point! That my friend is an apologetic excuse which you have bought into and have overlooked the big picture. This thread is here to provide the big picture and turn apologists on their head.

[Kishkumen]

“After the manner of”, is a precise statement . . .

I just don't think that is necessarily the case. You need it to be precise so you can argue that there is no way this could have been done, ergo not ancient, not historical, etc. I can imagine any number of possibilities that could explain this. I may not believe them, but they are technically possible. Even histories are usually highly rhetorical and ideological--images of the past that represent very opinionated views. All we are really meant to get out of this is that Nephi and his people were very observant Jews in properly practicing the temple cultus.

Indeed, the story leads me to believe it was a much smaller building, but that’s not the point! That my friend is an apologetic excuse which you have bought into and have overlooked the big picture. This thread is here to provide the big picture and turn apologists on their head.

I don't need to buy into apologetic excuses. I don't think the Book of Mormon is historical or ancient. It was obviously written by Joseph Smith with varying degrees of assistance lent by his associates. My sense is that you are just accustomed to naïve readings of the text that you now use as straw men to argue for the overall naïvété and ignorance you see in the Book of Mormon.

[Shulem]

"After the manner" is kind of a vague statement.

I don’t think it’s vague. Whether you’re talking about making metal swords or stone temples -- you have a template or plan to go by and use the materials it takes to do it:

1) Swords = Metal (large & small)
2) Temples = Stone (large & small)

So,

“And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords”

Or

And I Nephi, did take the temple of Solomon, and after the manner of it did make another temple