“I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

[Shulem]

Shulem, old friend, surely you can’t be serious in arguing that anyone who had seen an angel could not have been subsequently led astray. Where has the vision of an angel ever been absolute proof against apostasy?

Kishkumen,

I’m afraid you fail to understand my argument and the point that I’m making, so I will spell it out more clearly. Then you will understand.

I am not arguing whether the appearance of angels lead one astray or correctly guides someone on the right path. That is not my argument, at all. I DO believe in angels or spiritual beings of light appear to people all the time whether in dreams or in actual reality. How do I know this happens? It happened to me! And, I don’t just speak for myself, because my missionary companion and I were visited by two angels one night while asleep in our bunks. It happened. The room became as bright as day and the whole room felt sweet and crisp -- a kind of sweetness very hard to explain. My companion and I discussed it the next day and then never mentioned it again. Interesting enough, my companion and I did not get along at all. We were also companions together at the MTC in Provo. I learned recently that the poor chap died a few years ago of cancer. Rest his soul.

But back to my main point which is the Book of Mormon narrative does not make any claim or indication that angels or superbeings came to assist the lowly Nephite families in building the temple. The story makes no allusion whatsoever to the idea or thought that the Nephites were incapable of building such a structure and would need outside assistance. In fact, the story leads us to believe they did it all on their own being led and directed by the Lord just as they were able to build a ship using the same strategy and method, relying upon the Lord to somehow get it done because the Lord gives no commandments unless he provides a way to get it done. You know the drill.

The Book of Mormon discusses angels appearing to Lehi, Nephi, and his brethren, especially Jacob in personal visitations and manifestation in proclaiming gospel truths. But these visitations are not long lasting or very physical in nature except for the time when an angel appeared to all of the brethren at once and reproved Laman & Lamuel! That was the main exception in having an angel(s) come down and actually do something. Otherwise, it was all spiritual talk and learning to talk like angels through the gift of the Spirit.

My argument is that the Book of Mormon claims the people of Nephi built a temple made of stone and I hereby prove that doing so was impossible and Smith overstepped the bounds in writing that into his story so soon. He should have waited at least 100 years or more before doing that.

[Kishkumen]

My argument is that the Book of Mormon claims the people of Nephi built a temple made of stone and I hereby prove that doing so was impossible and Smith overstepped the bounds in writing that into his story so soon. He should have waited at least 100 years or more before doing that.

Thank you for sharing all of that, Shulem. That is very interesting indeed. Your personal experience is particularly fascinating.

Look, I am not trying to bust your boxes here. Of course the Book of Mormon is not an ancient text. It is really quite ludicrous to think that a couple dozen people in the wilderness constructed a temple anything like the Temple of Solomon. So, you don't need to convince me. The idea that they built a temple "after the manner of the temple of Solomon" is not to be taken literally but as a literary trope. When Aeneas led the Trojans to Italy, one of the first things they built upon arrival was a military camp. Why?

Because that is what Romans do. They go into unfamiliar territory and build a military camp.

Smith is just borrowing this trope of ancient epic literature--one can argue that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century Christian epic--and adapting it for his imaginary civilization. What do Hebrews do when they colonize a new land?

The build a new temple of Solomon, of course. It's just a literary trope.

That said, I think it is pretty ingenious to imagine Nephi with his lapis lazuli magical ring commanding demons to assist in the construction of the temple. I mean, look at this verse again:

16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

If the lore about the construction of Solomon's temple is that he employed demons that he magically controlled in order to complete it, then what is to prevent us from imagining that Nephi did the same thing? After all, he used the same methods of construction.

Perhaps the Liahona was the instrument through which he controlled the demons. It was of curious workmanship, and it helped them construct a temple with "exceedingly fine" workmanship?

And, on a more serious note, the truth is that no text is so tight that it can't be interpreted in many different ways.

ETA: Where did the Liahona come from? Who made it? Angels?

[huckelberry]

Kishkumen,
There may be moments a person just must own up to their own ignorance. I am unfamiliar with the demon controlling Solomon's ring.May I ask, Is the story Masonic? Is it medieval Jewish story or Medieval Christian , or perhaps Islamic? Or is all of those with origin uncertain?

[Shulem]

Smith is just borrowing this trope of ancient epic literature--one can argue that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century Christian epic--and adapting it for his imaginary civilization. What do Hebrews do when they colonize a new land?

The build a new temple of Solomon, of course. It's just a literary trope.

Well, this *TROPE* you speak of gets much worse than just a temple being fashioned after the likeness of Solomon’s temple but simulates or copies Solomon in all his glory! How so? According to the story when Nephi was old and close to death, he anointed a man king of the Nephites. You’d think that his decision of who would be king was the best possible choice in mirroring what Nephi wanted for his people. But not so. Apparently Nephi anointed the worst person to be king.

Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings

Shortly thereafter, Nephi died, his younger brother (Jacob) took the spiritual helm and the plates. Jacob tells how the people began to search much gold and silver and were lifted up in pride. But then Jacob tells us that the TROPE just got much worse:

And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

How is it that Jacob who really was not much younger than Nephi managed to witness Nephi’s recently installed king take Solomon’s temple to new levels and introduce polygamy among the people? Jacob & Joseph had a real problem on their hands because polygamy was apparently rampant among the Nephites but not at all among the Lamanites who in that regard were more righteous. So, how is it that Joseph Smith introduced polygamy into his story like a capstone on Solomon’s temple built by the hands of Nephi?

It seems to me that polygamy was always on Joseph Smith’s mind and that it was his secret means to find ways to make it righteous and holy through a prophetic ministration. But that’s another story in and of itself! So, getting back to your point. Do you see this polygamy being practiced as simply another TROPE being written into the story or were they actually doing it? Polygamous Nephite families living right under Nephi’s dying eyes! Another king Solomon in their very midst!

Was that a trope, too?

[Kishkumen]

Kishkumen,
There may be moments a person just must own up to their own ignorance. I am unfamiliar with the demon controlling Solomon's ring.May I ask, Is the story Masonic? Is it medieval Jewish story or Medieval Christian , or perhaps Islamic? Or is all of those with origin uncertain?

I believe it is a medieval Arabic tradition, but from there it goes into mystical Judaism and Western esotericism.

[Shulem]

ETA: Where did the Liahona come from? Who made it? Angels?

What need would angels have for a compass or magical contraction that points the way? An angel need only think himself somewhere and he’s there suddenly -- in an instant. The mind *is* the only tool an angel will ever need.

So where did the curious ball come from? Well, that is more stuff Smith made up for his story. There never was a magic ball. There was no ship either in which they sailed across the ocean. There was no temple. No horses. No swords. No angel Moroni.

Getting back to what I said earlier, it’s no coincidence that Smith included Nephite polygamy with a Solomon-like temple. Smith was tying it together and trying to mirror the Nephite civilization after the Jews in order to make it sound or appear authentic. I believe Smith was infatuated with polygamy and it aroused his senses. The business of polygamy in the Book of Mormon, however, is a moot point but serves to show what was on Smith’s mind. He wanted his story to seem Jewish and supposedly the temples, sanctuaries, and synagogues were built after the manner of the Jews.

Granted, Smith was very creative and managed to juggle different stories at the same time with complex timelines and multiple groups but his fatal flaw was including a temple built after the manner of Solomon so early in his story. He needed to allow more time for the civilization to develop whereby economy and industry would support a nation state construction project. But Smith’s book reads like a 20th century novel pretending to be ancient – King James warts and all.

[huckelberry]

Kishkumen,
There may be moments a person just must own up to their own ignorance. I am unfamiliar with the demon controlling Solomon's ring.May I ask, Is the story Masonic? Is it medieval Jewish story or Medieval Christian , or perhaps Islamic? Or is all of those with origin uncertain?

I believe it is a medieval Arabic tradition, but from there it goes into mystical Judaism and Western esotericism.

kishkumen,
Hey, thanks for bothering to respond. I realized after posing my question that I have the knowitall machine at my fingertips. It told me a bit more detail.
Now if it could tell me true what the folks in Jerusalem were thinking in 8th century bc.
Then what to do with such information if it became available.

[Kishkumen]

Belief in Solomon’s special abilities can be traced back as far as Josephus, at least, and it is probably older. For example, when Jesus is called son of David, it is because he is exorcising demons as Solomon was believed to be able to do. This is not as strong as the evidence in Josephus, because one must infer the connection, but I think it’s a compelling argument all the same.

[Moksha]

Did the Nephites bring any members of the Masonic stone workers guild with them on their voyage? What about abandoned metal forges from the time of the Third Age Dwarves?


Armored Nephite Soldier marching on to war

[Kishkumen]

What need would angels have for a compass or magical contraction that points the way? An angel need only think himself somewhere and he’s there suddenly -- in an instant. The mind *is* the only tool an angel will ever need.

So where did the curious ball come from? Well, that is more stuff Smith made up for his story. There never was a magic ball. There was no ship either in which they sailed across the ocean. There was no temple. No horses. No swords. No angel Moroni.

Getting back to what I said earlier, it’s no coincidence that Smith included Nephite polygamy with a Solomon-like temple. Smith was tying it together and trying to mirror the Nephite civilization after the Jews in order to make it sound or appear authentic. I believe Smith was infatuated with polygamy and it aroused his senses. The business of polygamy in the Book of Mormon, however, is a moot point but serves to show what was on Smith’s mind. He wanted his story to seem Jewish and supposedly the temples, sanctuaries, and synagogues were built after the manner of the Jews.

Granted, Smith was very creative and managed to juggle different stories at the same time with complex timelines and multiple groups but his fatal flaw was including a temple built after the manner of Solomon so early in his story. He needed to allow more time for the civilization to develop whereby economy and industry would support a nation state construction project. But Smith’s book reads like a 20th century novel pretending to be ancient – King James warts and all.

Yeah, yeah, I get it. How many times do you need to repeat this? Yes, the Book of Mormon is not literally an ancient text. Got that. I agree. I have said this numerous times myself. So?

Back to my point, it is interesting to consider what Joseph might have been thinking with the Liahona. Was it a Jaredite artifact? An angelic artifact?

Oh, by the way, angels might build tech for humans, dear Shulem, not because they need it themselves. Anyone who knows their para-biblical lore knows that the Watchers, or Nephilim, came down to earth and taught humankind the technology that led them astray and brought upon them the wrath of God in the form of a flood that cleansed the earth.