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Something not quite right

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 12:10 am
by Shulem
After Moses fled Egypt there was no talk of building a stone temple for some 440 years until king David confessed how wonderful his life was living in a cedar house and wanted to upgrade the tabernacle (Tent of the Congregation) and build a permanent temple for the Lord. Permission to do so was granted through Nathan the prophet as he consulted with the Lord (2 Chronicles 17). In the next chapter we learn how David subdues all his enemies and reigns with justice and power over the kingdom of Israel. This is a perfect time to finally build a permanent House of the Lord -- made of stone and set upon a stone foundation upon the mount into which it would sit for hundreds of years. So much for the Tent of the Tabernacle! All that would be moved to the temple.

Now consider the Nephites: They had just escaped from their murderous brethren and struggled to set up a new camp in the wilderness while living in the raw, cut off from civilization -- living from day to day and doing everything they could just to survive on a daily basis. We also learn that they were at war with their brethren and that’s the reason swords were fashioned in order to protect themselves from their enemies. How hardly is this a time to build a permanent structure to the LORD. Wouldn’t a simple tabernacle or an ornamental shrine of humble degree (like Kishkumen suggests) be good enough? No, not according to the story. Nephi commanded his people to build a temple and all this while they were having to defend themselves from their enemies, maintain homesteads, attend to the sick and wounded, and raise crops and manage food supplies.

Folks, do you see something is seriously wrong with Joseph Smith’s story? Can you see it? It’s right there in front of you.

Open your eyes! Joseph Smith was making up a whopper!

What will the Church do to sell itself?

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 1:55 am
by Shulem
This pageantry and gross exaggeration is put on display in order to sell religion. It’s propaganda -- all for the purpose to sell The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with hopes to win more converts who will pay into the system and devote their lives to the cause. It reminds me of the joys of purchasing a cupcake in primary for just 5 cents.

Would you like a cupcake?

Nephi, Sam and Zoram work to build the temple in the Land of Nephi. wrote:
Is that young Jacob to the lower left?

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Jacob teaching the Nephites wrote:
Jacob is now considerably older and is teaching the Nephites on the steps of the temple.

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Nephi & Jacob wrote:
Nephi and Jacob sitting on the steps of the temple with all the children who helped build it.

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Nephi and his wife listening as Jacob teaches wrote:
At least we know that Nephi had a wife. The Book of Mormon says absolutely nothing about her.

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Fat Zoram

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 3:06 am
by Shulem
Ok, please forgive me if I overstep the sensibilities of what is expected here on the Celestial Forum, but I simply have to point something out that caught my eye in the previous post. Notice the gentleman to the left of the photo, he’s fat. We see three people together, beginning from right: Nephi, Sam, and Zoram. The person to the far left is Zoram.

But what the heck? He’s fat and totally out of shape. How hardly does he look like he’s capable of performing such labor? It looks to me as if it was just enough to put on the fake clothes, step up on the fake prop, and get his photo taken with the boys!

Zoram is definitely not in shape. The flab on his arms reveals he’s not fit. He consumes more calories than he burns. What is disturbing about this is that he is one of the older men who came out of Jerusalem and should therefore be one of the workhorses in performing labor. But from what I can see he looks like he eats more than he exerts and is therefore a liability to the cause. Someone is going to have to do the work that he doesn’t do and that someone is the CHILDREN! Now we start to consider the implications of child labor abuse and so forth.

This is a clear case of child labor abuse if you ask me! Where is Jersey Girl when you need her?

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Ask yourself if it’s true

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 9:11 pm
by Shulem
When you read the Book of Mormon, consider the facts and determine in your own mind whether the claims therein are historical as you compare them with other sources. Make an honest comparison with other source material and logically determine if what you are reading really makes sense. See if it proves itself within its context in a reasonable and scientific way. Ask yourself if it really makes sense and can withstand scrutiny and determine whether it’s a fantastic novel made up from the mind of Joseph Smith or if it’s really a historical story that was actually contained on gold plates that Smith gave back to an angel. An honest and sincere approach is what is needed to determine whether it’s a fraud or not. You’ll never see any gold plates and the Book of Mormon will never be proven true by evidence whether archeological or otherwise. Belief in the Book of Mormon is totally faith based. What or how you feel about the book does not matter. People believe all kinds of things based on how they feel only to learn later it was false. Regardless, you get to decide whether to believe or not. But get the facts first before committing to the Book of Mormon. You owe yourself that much!

Re: Fat Zoram

Posted: Mon May 24, 2021 10:05 pm
by Shulem
Shulem wrote:
Mon May 24, 2021 3:06 am
Zoram is definitely not in shape. The flab on his arms reveals he’s not fit. He consumes more calories than he burns. What is disturbing about this is that he is one of the older men who came out of Jerusalem and should therefore be one of the workhorses in performing labor. But from what I can see he looks like he eats more than he exerts and is therefore a liability to the cause. Someone is going to have to do the work that he doesn’t do and that someone is the CHILDREN! Now we start to consider the implications of child labor abuse and so forth.


Zoram working with leather (How did he get so heavy?)

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Zoram standing around chatting with family while children work

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That pretty much leaves Nephi and his older brother Sam to do the lion share of work with the help of their younger brothers, Jacob & Joseph, of course. Zoram looks mighty lazy if you ask me.

Smile, you’re on Candid Camera!

Posted: Tue May 25, 2021 4:10 am
by Shulem
This is Mormon propaganda at its finest. Just smile for the camera. Here we have Nephi and his wife invited to take center stage and pose for the camera in order to provide a wholesome and faithful depiction of Mormonism establishing a new temple in the promised land. What could be more faith promoting? But it’s all fake! This entire presentation is propaganda and is designed to create and stimulate fantasy within the minds of those who believe in Book of Mormon stories.

How many of those stones in the temple wall did Nephi hew out of live rock and haul to the temple to be set in place? How many did his brother Sam hew? How about Zoram, seeing he’s somewhat heavy, he could have hauled all of them on a sled! What about Jacob and Joseph? Did they hew those stones and set them up, perfectly in place, and raise the walls and ceilings? Look at those steps and the foundation upon which the temple is built. It is absolutely massive!

How could this little band have built this? On the contrary, none of that actually happened. All this is nothing but propaganda.


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Fantasy Temple

Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 2:53 pm
by Shulem
This is propaganda taken from a prominent faith promoting website called Book of Mormon Evidence and is solely designed to stimulate the pleasure senses within the mind of those determined to maintain faithfulness and belief in the Book of Mormon regardless of the red flags. In the painting we see Nephi with one of his brethren. Note the curious ball, gold plates, and the solid gold hilted sword of Laban. Is that a pair of magic spectacles to the left of the ball for reading ancient languages? It all seems to be there, resting on a table of stone wherein the chief architect (young Nephi) directs the work from a distance. It all seems so faithful and true! But is it?

Is that one of Nephi’s brothers at his side, perhaps Sam? Who are the two workers atop the temple exerting heavy manual labor and the other two men working at the base of the temple? Could that be Zoram stoking the fire? Is that young Jacob & Joseph building the roof? Who is that on the entrance ramp assisting his unseen partner haul a heavy object? Wouldn’t it be more wise and productive to tend to crops, maintain housing, and herd animals rather than build a stone temple to the Lord? And wouldn’t Laman & Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael want to attack and seize this building for themselves?

This is so WRONG:

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QUESTION: How did they get those stone balls atop the two pillars in front of the temple?

ANSWER: They didn’t because this is all fantasy designed to deceive the mind!

Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
by Shulem
2 Nephi 5:16 wrote:And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Let’s break the verse down into 4 parts:

1) And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon
2) save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land,
3) wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple.
4) But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Nephi states that certain materials were NOT used to build the temple because they were precious and not found upon the land. That is the *only* stated reason certain precious materials were not used for the Nephite temple -- “they were not to be found upon the land.”

Nephi’s statement DOES NOT:

1) Indicate a reduced size
2) Indicate stone was not used
3) Indicate poor workmanship

Re: “I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon”

Posted: Wed May 26, 2021 6:17 pm
by Shulem
Nephi wrote:1) And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon
2) save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land,
3) wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple.
4) But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Now, for the sake of argument, let’s suppose that there were plenty of precious things found upon the land whereby Nephi could build his temple “like unto Solomon’s temple”. Let’s pretend that precious things are no longer an issue and more than enough of those so-called “precious things” are at hand. Now we can modify Nephi’s statement to correspond with the richness and abundance of having those precious things:

Nephi having precious things wrote:And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon being built of so many precious things; for they were found upon the land, wherefore, it could be built like unto Solomon’s temple. And the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.

Now are you convinced, Kishkumen? It was *ONLY* the precious things that prohibited Nephi from duplicating Solomon’s temple. That is according to the text and the mindset of the author, Joseph Smith.

McSolomon's Temple

Posted: Thu May 27, 2021 1:35 am
by Shulem
Shulem wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:43 pm
Nephi states that certain materials were NOT used to build the temple because they were precious and not found upon the land. That is the *only* stated reason certain precious materials were not used for the Nephite temple -- “they were not to be found upon the land.”

Nephi’s statement DOES NOT:

1) Indicate a reduced size
2) Indicate stone was not used
3) Indicate poor workmanship

Book of Mormon defenders universally embrace #1 even though it’s not supported by the text! This is how they prevent cognitive dissonance and doubt about the Nephite temple being able to measure up to the base building standard in which the text claims. However, #1 is not supported by the text! It’s an apologetic claim only. The Book of Mormon does not indicate that the temple is reduced in size or does not conform to the actual size of the temple in Jerusalem which measurements would have been contained in Laban’s brass plates.

So, what did the brass plates say about the size and measurement of Solomon’s temple?

Brass Plates via 1 Kings 6:2 wrote:And the house which king Solomon built for the Lord, the length thereof was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits.

Long = 60 cubits
Wide = 20 cubits
High = 30 cubits

The Book of Mormon text does not state or allude to deviate from the dimensions of Solomon’s temple. Nephi never claimed to reduce the size of his temple after the one in Jerusalem! Size reduction is an apologetic assertion because they are unable to accept at face value what the Nephite text actually claims.