The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Moksha »

Moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
Ask your sushi chef to use quinoa rather than rice during Passover if you want to remain kosher...
Wait a minute, this points to some religious traditions as being superstitious nonsense. Could this carry over into other religious teachings such as the items being argued about? Perhaps that means we should double down on our arguments.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Shulem »

Moksha wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:01 am
Moksha wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
Ask your sushi chef to use quinoa rather than rice during Passover if you want to remain kosher...
Wait a minute, this points to some religious traditions as being superstitious nonsense. Could this carry over into other religious teachings such as the items being argued about? Perhaps that means we should double down on our arguments.

Hey, are U talking to yourself again?

Must U be so black and white?

:lol:
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Moksha »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:33 pm
Must U be so black and white?

:lol:
The beak and feet are yellow. ;) Keep going, I am enjoying this thread.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Perhaps it can be noted that the Jews are fallowing what I am observing. They have gone almost 2000 years without animal sacrifice. It actually is some Christian theories that propose blood is necessary though almost all such thinking realizes the blood represents things more important.

Exactly. The Jews today do not practice the Law of Moses. But that is NOT my point. My point is that the Jews and the House of Israel under Levite control practiced the Law of Moses and by doing so butchered and slaughtered countless animals to an invisible God in order to receive forgiveness of sins because MOSES commanded it.

That religion in my view is very, very, wrong. I have a problem with Moses. I have a problem with Aaron. I most certainly have a problem with animal sacrifices that were performed all for the purpose of pleasing Jehovah and satisfying his demands by spilling blood all over the place, blood everywhere – even wiping blood on their very bodies as symbols! The whole thing should have never happened! I’m glad it was discontinued.

If I could get in a time machine and go back I would confront Moses and tell him to stop the madness.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Shulem »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:39 pm
Paul explicitly calls Christ “our paschal lamb, has been slain,” at 1 Cor. 5:7. Again it has been noted that “the Paschal victim was not a sin-offering or regarded as a means of expiating or removing sins.” And developing this further, we note that “the Passover is already associated with atonement in Ezek. 45:18-22.” Note however, this is the blood of the young bull and the atonement was for the spreading of blood all over the temple door, posts, etc., to cleanse the building of sin

How does one cleanse a building of sin? Does a building commit sin? What does a building do other than simply exist? Is it not the people that are in the building that sin and not the building itself? The idea of cleansing a building of sin by wiping blood on it brings to mind all kinds of cult practices performed by primitive peoples since the dawn of time. But let’s be clear, a building CANNOT commit sin. A building can’t do anything other than exist in its stagnant position. So, the idea of cleansing a building by wiping blood on it is entirely a symbolic gesture that is somehow supposed to benefit the people (sinners) who enter therein.

This practice has been entirely done away. Right?
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
It actually is some Christian theories that propose blood is necessary though almost all such thinking realizes the blood represents things more important.

Blood certainly is an important element in Christian theology with regard to the atonement. But blood is everywhere else, so it seems. Take this tidbit from the David:

Ps 58:10 wrote: The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.

The washing of oneself with blood is certainly a Christian doctrine seeing that Christians are supposed to wash themselves and their robes in Jesus’s blood, all symbolic of course. But how do you wash yourself and your linen in blood? In my view this symbolism was given to outperform the blood of the Old Testament and provide a more intense religious dogma in order to get new converts. It was very effective and has really worked well in growing a new religion based on BLOOD.

But note how David, in the Psalm, was happy about washing his feet with the blood of the wicked. I don’t think Christians today take kindly to that kind of talk. Do they?
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by huckelberry »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 12:59 am
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Shulem, surely you realize nobody is doubting that animal sacrifices are commanded to be made in Torah.

I do realize that nobody is doubting that animal sacrifices were commanded to be made in Torah.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
The question is what is going on with those sacrifices not that people are told to do them.

The bottom line is that animal sacrifices were being performed, PERIOD. I don’t care why they were doing them!
.............
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Isaiah makes it clear that forgiveness may happen without the sacrifice.

Isaiah was just another Israelite want-to-be prophet. Isaiah was NOT a Moses. He came much later during the evolution of Israel’s religion. I could care less what Isaiah said. He is totally irrelevant when it comes to representing Moses or what Moses said.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
It is possible that Isaiah believes sacrifices could become acceptable again.

I don’t care what Isaiah had to say. All I care about is what Moses said, period.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Notice the order of events in that case. The sacrifice is not acceptable unless forgiveness has already been established.

As I say, I don’t care about Isaiah. He was just another false prophet in Israel! I don’t believe he would have gotten along with Moses.

Please, quote Moses when it comes to Moses.

Thanks.
Shulem , Well I certainly care what Isaiah said, your opinion of Isaiah is sufficiently bizarre that I simply find little way to relate to it. I was unsure whether to take the fallowing turn to clarify but does seem to be necessary.

We have a whole book actually from Isaiah. We do not have any writings from Moses.It does not make any sense to only quote Moses. For Moses we have traditions largely from the monarchy assembled over 600 years after Moses in order to maintain cultural identity during the Babylonian captivity.

There are many reasons to see this. It is standard understanding of those first five books of the Old Testament. Have you ever wondered where Moses would have ever gotten all those animals to sacrifice? They are not countless but they are a large number of them. He wouldn't. Only in a settled agricultural environment with a strong King would such activities have been possible or have made any sense. The numbers and volumn express power and that would be a combination of expressing the Kings power with their hope of Gods support as an ally in war.

All that talk of blood has to do with war. Israel lived under threat of war created by powerful neighbors and its own belief in the value of itself keeping enough territory under the kings control to keep a safe realm. It should be remembered that war then was unlike now when killing can be done from miles away.Then it was done with physical contact that would spill blood on ones own feet.
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7090
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:15 pm
Shulem , Well I certainly care what Isaiah said, your opinion of Isaiah is sufficiently bizarre that I simply find little way to relate to it.

I was somewhat intrigued that you found it bizarre that I don’t believe Isaiah was a prophet and was only interested in what Moses had to say with reference to animal sacrifice in the Old Testament. I don’t believe Moses was a prophet either but I find his writings in the Old Testament to be a standard and they are generally accepted as authoritative in representing the religion of the Jews. Isaiah was just another want-to-be prophet who came along much later and doesn’t compare at all with Moses. Isaiah’s writings are blah, blah, blah -- nobody before his time had to listen to him. But everybody from Moses on knew about Moses! I am interested in discussing Moses, however. --he’s the real villain of the Old Testament if you don’t mind me saying. He is certainly one of the most interesting characters in history and his influence in forming and controlling religion on a nation state level is unprecedented.

Thank you for your polite responses in this discussion. I do realize that you’re not a fan of animal sacrifice and it’s probably not something you like to think about too much. I’m sure you’ve had to work it all out in your own mind and put things in different compartments and sort them out. I’m not trying to get you to agree with me or lose faith in any way. I’m expressing my views and and there are a lot of people alive today that are totally opposed to animal sacrifice in the Bible. There are countless millions of people who are not Christians and actually despise the Old Testament. I’m one such person. I am not a Christian and I despise the sacrificing of animals for forgiveness of sins, especially burning them whole -- I think that was a crime against nature.
huckelberry
God
Posts: 2578
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:48 pm

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by huckelberry »

Now it is certainly possible to consider what views are held in the collection of materials referred to as books of Moses. It is not to my knowledge possible to date each of those statements. They are clearly a collection of traditions with multiple sources.

Considering sacrifices there is material about what is to be sacrificed how for what occasion. Reason for all of that are not explored. It is simply this is the way it is to be done. In a sense for the Old Testament that works. It is in making a link to the Christianity that questions arise. Of course Shulem is correct that Christianity is a new business so some caution should be kept comparing Jesus to Old Testament sacrifices. Some of the language and images are used in the New Testament to try and find explanation. That is a starting point. It seems to me important to keep in mind that Jesus was doing a new thing. Attempt to understand should be willing to dig and even be open to new understanding developing. Understanding of what Jesus was doing could even expand at this late date.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5810
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Moksha »

Skeptical Bird wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:01 am
Wait a minute, this points to some religious traditions as being superstitious nonsense.
When the subject of blood being necessary for cleansing comes up, it is like we have taken a step into the Aryan Zone, or at least far from Humanitarian premises or the Christian grace of God idea.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Post Reply