The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Moksha
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Shulem wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 am
Forgiveness of sins comes from killing animals and eating them before God according to Moses’s prescribed rituals.
You cannot expect forgiveness for soup dumplings because of the pork and shrimp thing. Not a problem with the LDS gospels unless you have a beer along with it. Ask your sushi chef to use quinoa rather than rice during Passover if you want to remain kosher with the L-rd and not have to say some Hail Mannys during tithing settlement.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Shulem
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:52 pm
You actually are providing a very good service here Shulem!

Oh, wonderful, I am very glad to hear that! I didn’t want to step on your toes or make you feel like your thread had been hijacked or derailed from where you wanted it to go. But you know, this is DiscussMormonism and Joseph Smith is the captain of Mormonism and so we need to respect that and bring him into the picture too. Having been BIC and raised and indoctrinated with Smith’s teachings, that’s pretty much how I have come to understand Christianity and use that foundation when reading the Old Testament, word for word, black and white, and all the awful stuff therein.

Keep pumping out your articles and see what comes of it all. I’m working on mine too in my own little way. It’s amazing to learn just how weak Mormonism really is. Truly, it’s a faith-based religion that is easy to pick apart at every level and every turn.

I don’t mean to offend anyone up here in the Celestial Board, so if I have – I sincerely apologize and would welcome any criticism or rebuke from any poster who feels I’m being out of line or disrespectful. I will assess myself immediately and make the necessary corrections. I want the Celestial Board to be a safe place where anyone can come and DiscussMormonism without having to take offense or feel abused in any way.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Isaiah ch 1
listen to the instruction of our God,
you people of Gomorrah!
11
“The multitude of your sacrifices—
what are they to me?” says the Lord.
“I have more than enough of burnt offerings,
of rams and the fat of fattened animals;
I have no pleasure
in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats.
12
When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
13
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
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Shulem
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Huckleberry,

Christians don’t get it. They don’t understand Moses or the LORD and look to excuse those things they refuse to accept.

Jehovah was speaking to Isaiah and addressing an apostate people who had trampled the law or commandments that were given to Moses in a manner that displeased the LORD. Isaiah’s message does not apply to Moses, Aaron, and previous faithful Israelites who lived the Law in the intended spirit in which it was given. Isaiah was dealing with apostates! The LORD doesn’t accept offering made by apostates and neither delights in their sacrificial offerings. Further, Jehovah’s religion was ever changing and evolving as do all religions. The strictness of Moses’s original religion gave way in time and evolved to change with the times.

The LORD of the Old Testament delighted in animal offerings made by Moses:

Exodus 29:18
And thou shalt burn the whole ram upon the altar: it is a burnt offering unto the LORD: it is a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

The Lord of the New Testament delighted in the human offering of the MAN Christ:

2 Corinthians 2:15
For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

It is true that the LORD delights in obedience above all things but he also delights in sacrifices when they are done obediently and in the spirit he intended them to be offered. Jehovah was a God of animal sacrifices. That was his thing! That is what he loved and they were his sweet savour.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:39 pm
Dunn further notes, in Paul, the several places of his using the phrase “in/through his blood,” cannot be adequately understood except as a reference to Christ’s death as a sacrifice.”[11] “Rev 1:5 calls Jesus the One who has redeemed, i.e. ransomed (λυσαντι) us from our sins by His blood. One cannot be more precise about Rev 1:5.[12]

Without question this is a defining culmination of the Christian religion that embraced the virtue of BLOOD being spilled in order to receive forgiveness from the ALL LOVING God. Blood must be spilled. No blood = no forgiveness!

In my view, it’s all about subjecting the mind to cult thinking whereby one pledges their soul to the idea that someone (in this case a Man, not animal) had life taken by sacrifice and blood spilt for the sole purpose of forgiving sins. Having once embraced the doctrine of blood atonement as a practicing Mormon, I will never again embrace the cult ideology of blood being spilled to forgive sins. That is NOT the God I believe in. It's religion out of the Dark Ages and continues today even in our modern time to flourish. People seem to need that. But I sure don’t. I find it repulsive. Perhaps I wouldn’t object so loudly if it wasn’t for the fact that Christians tell me that I’m going to hell to burn forever because I refuse to accept Christ and apply his gospel in my life according the Christian religion.

Just saying. That’s what I think and feel.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Hmm, and I thought the matter was about sharing a meal.

Whole burnt offerings were not a meal. They were whole offerings burnt up -- the complete animal was sacrificed upon the altar of fire whereby the odor would reach up into the nostrils of Jehovah and please him.

That is NOT a meal. It’s killing innocent life for no other reason than to appease the demands of an invisible God who requires death by sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins.

I trust you understand that?
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Paying for your sins is not it. Nobody earns any forgiveness by wacking an animal.

But forgiveness was earned by killing an animal! It’s straight from the Bible.

First, the priest kills the animal for his own sins:

Lev. 16 wrote:11 And Aaron shall bring the bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and shall make an atonement for himself, and for his house, and shall kill the bullock of the sin offering which is for himself:

Second, the priest kills the animal for the sins of the people:

Lev. 16 wrote:15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.

. . . . and the priest shall make an atonement . . . .
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:51 pm
13
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!

Or in other words,

Start bringing meaningful offerings!
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by huckelberry »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:21 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Paying for your sins is not it. Nobody earns any forgiveness by wacking an animal.

But forgiveness was earned by killing an animal! It’s straight from the Bible.

First, the priest kills the animal for his own sins:

Shulem, surely you realize nobody is doubting that animal sacrifices are commanded to be made in Torah. I have read the Torah more than twice. The question is what is going on with those sacrifices not that people are told to do them.

Isaiah makes it clear that forgiveness may happen without the sacrifice. It is possible that Isaiah believes sacrifices could become acceptable again. Notice the order of events in that case. The sacrifice is not acceptable unless forgiveness has already been established.

////
Perhaps it can be noted that the Jews are fallowing what I am observing. They have gone almost 2000 years without animal sacrifice. It actually is some Christian theories that propose blood is necessary though almost all such thinking realizes the blood represents things more important.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

Post by Shulem »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Shulem, surely you realize nobody is doubting that animal sacrifices are commanded to be made in Torah.

I do realize that nobody is doubting that animal sacrifices were commanded to be made in Torah.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
I have read the Torah more than twice.

That’s commendable. There are probably a lot of Christians who haven’t read it even once. I’ve read it more times than I have fingers and toes and out loud, too. However, I am not an expert or authority on historical and doctrinal issues involving those writing.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
The question is what is going on with those sacrifices not that people are told to do them.

The bottom line is that animal sacrifices were being performed, PERIOD. I don’t care why they were doing them! What matters to me is that innocent animals were being killed for religious rites but more especially countless animals were being wholly burnt up for the sole purpose of making a sweet savor for the LORD. Innocent animals slaughtered and butchered, NOT for their meat or human sustenance, but for burning them whole because Jehovah required slaughter by fire in order to forgive sins. Burnt offerings!

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Isaiah makes it clear that forgiveness may happen without the sacrifice.

Isaiah was just another Israelite want-to-be prophet. Isaiah was NOT a Moses. He came much later during the evolution of Israel’s religion. I could care less what Isaiah said. He is totally irrelevant when it comes to representing Moses or what Moses said.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
It is possible that Isaiah believes sacrifices could become acceptable again.

I don’t care what Isaiah had to say. All I care about is what Moses said, period.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:06 pm
Notice the order of events in that case. The sacrifice is not acceptable unless forgiveness has already been established.

As I say, I don’t care about Isaiah. He was just another false prophet in Israel! I don’t believe he would have gotten along with Moses.

Please, quote Moses when it comes to Moses.

Thanks.
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