The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Shulem
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:39 pm
Leon Morris noted the many views and scriptures interpreted which have interpreted animal sacrifice as the blood meaning “the life” which is supposedly the emphasis. After careful examination he concludes, properly so, that this is just incorrect, interesting though that is. Sacrifice is not about “offering up life,” it is not about “the bestowal of life,” it is in the whole offering, rather than just a blood offering that is involved. It is “dam [blood] in the Old Testament indicates that it signifies life violently taken rather than the continued presence of life available...in short, death rather than life.”[2]

I'm back.

Blood is the life or life is in the blood in much the same sense as air is the life or life is in the air that we breathe. Without blood and air we cannot live.

Soooo, if you cut yourself in the wrist and laydown and do nothing, you will slowly die until your mind fades and your heart stops beating. That is death because without the blood the body pump (heart) cannot function and sustain life.

Soooo, by slitting the throat of the sacrificial animal and letting it bleed to death in a ritualic spiritual search for a higher meaning in God will cause the animal to die. The slitter can witness the death and present that death to the benefactor who is supposed to receive forgiveness and spiritual life in God. It was Jehovah who said he gives life and takes it away. The animal life is given to the benefactor in exchange for faith and a pledge. Thus, the lifeforce that is in animal blood ritualistically and spiritually is given to sustain a spiritual life in God.

You know what they say, sacrifice brings forth blessings and they thought that sacrificing animals would give them the blessings they needed in order to please their God and live their religion. Hence, man not only depended on animals for food and temporal survival but their blood for spiritual benefit and forgiveness from God.
Last edited by Shulem on Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Philo Sofee
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:55 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:54 pm


I cannot possibly disagree with this very fine sentiment. Now then, no one has ever claimed this.

First, you whole heartedly agree with the statement made above. Then, you say that no one has ever claimed it. Just to clarify, the Jews who opposed Jesus were absolutely adamant that Moses was not a Christian! The Jews rejected Christ and his Christian ways and stood behind Moses as their chief prophet and lawgiver.

Just so we're clear on that, fact.

Right?
We are clear that Moses was not a Christian. No one ever said he was. You keep making weird statements like the Jews rejected Jesus. The Jews as if they are all in lock step agreement, which is way off base. Paul didn't reject Jesus, anymore than Peter, Andres, Barnabas, John, etc. It is far more accurate to say that some Jews didn't either do this or do that, believe this or believe that. There has never been something singular called Jews. There are many different dozens of groups, all with their own nuances and views.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:01 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:03 am
Second, the Ma'aseh Torah Jews today, right now, as I type most definitely continue on in the tradition and Law of Moses.

Show me the animals they are sacrificing on the altars in accordance to the strict laws of Moses as outlined in the Old Testament.

Jews today are NOT disciples of Moses. They are apostates and have forsaken the Law of Moses.

Animals MUST be sacrificed to Jehovah for the forgiveness of sins.

I know Moses's law and it is not kept or practiced by any Jews or any religious cult in our time.

Period.
Whatever you say....
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Shulem wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:29 am
I AM in so much trouble now!

:D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Dude, You tryin to make this place a bloody mess?!?
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Hmm, and I thought the matter was about sharing a meal.

Well I do not think the meaning of all those sacrifices is just one thing.

Some shared meal with God, some with each other. Some renewed a covenant relationship with God in the meal.

Paying for your sins is not it. Nobody earns any forgiveness by wacking an animal.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:08 am
We are clear that Moses was not a Christian.

You, I, and virtually the entire world is very clear on that.

But Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon is not. Moses WAS a Christian:

Alma 25 wrote:15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.

16 Now they did not suppose that salvation came by the law of Moses; but the law of Moses did serve to strengthen their faith in Christ; and thus they did retain a hope through faith, unto eternal salvation, relying upon the spirit of prophecy, which spake of those things to come.

Book of Mormons Christians following the Law of Moses:

Mosiah 16 wrote:14 Therefore, if ye teach the law of Moses, also teach that it is a shadow of those things which are to come—

15 Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.
2 Ne 25 wrote:26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

I think I can dig up some material that Moses talked of Christ, rejoiced in Christ, preached of Christ, and prophesied of Christ and wrote according to his prophecies of Christ.

Would you like that, Philo? This *IS* DiscussMormonism!

:D
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:08 am
No one ever said he was.

Moses did and quoted Noah:

Moses 8 wrote: 24 Believe and repent of your sins and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, even as our fathers, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost, that ye may have all things made manifest; and if ye do not this, the floods will come in upon you; nevertheless they hearkened not.
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Hmm, and I thought the matter was about sharing a meal.

It’s much more than just sharing a meal. It’s making blood covenants and accepting the sacrifice of another life taken in order to save your own because of the requirements of the law. Oh, the bloody cult rituals of the Old Testament. They are priceless, for sure. Very interesting to read.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Well I do not think the meaning of all those sacrifices is just one thing.

All that matters is what Moses said. He said what he meant and meant what he said. I’ve read his writings more times than I have fingers and toes and he never ceases to amaze me.

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Some shared meal with God, some with each other. Some renewed a covenant relationship with God in the meal.

That’s it? That’s all?

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:49 am
Paying for your sins is not it. Nobody earns any forgiveness by wacking an animal.

Please give me CHAPTER and VERSE from the Old Testament that teaches that!

Don’t cite the New. That is another religion. Give me Moses’ teachings only, please.

Forgiveness of sins comes from killing animals and eating them before God according to Moses’s prescribed rituals.

THAT IS STRAIGHT FROM THE Bible!
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:08 am
You keep making weird statements like the Jews rejected Jesus.

I’m reminded of the the teachings of the Book of Mormon and modern LDS prophets who taught that the Jews rejected Jesus:

2 Nephi 9 wrote:3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

THE JEWS REJECTED JESUS!

It’s a fact, the Jews did reject Jesus.

John 9:22
These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

etc
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Re: The Backstory to Jesus’s Atonement

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Shulem wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:10 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:08 am
You keep making weird statements like the Jews rejected Jesus.

I’m reminded of the the teachings of the Book of Mormon and modern LDS prophets who taught that the Jews rejected Jesus:

2 Nephi 9 wrote:3 Wherefore, as I said unto you, it must needs be expedient that Christ—for in the last night the angel spake unto me that this should be his name—should come among the Jews, among those who are the more wicked part of the world; and they shall crucify him—for thus it behooveth our God, and there is none other nation on earth that would crucify their God.

THE JEWS REJECTED JESUS!

It’s a fact, the Jews did reject Jesus.

John 9:22
These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.

etc
Ah, Joseph Smith's simplistic understanding comes to the fore......ya know, this actually could be very seriously valuable come to think of it. I can present the actual biblical materials, and you can show how Mormons have non stop continually misunderstood it all! I am on another write up and thoroughly enjoying it, should have it up here in a few more days.
It has been so long since I have read the Mormon side of biblical things, I had forgotten just how Mormonised/Christianised they had made it all! You actually are providing a very good service here Shulem!
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