600 Years in The Book of Mormon

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Hagoth
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Re: The Key

Post by Hagoth »

Shulem wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 5:18 am
And now, without further ado, I will reveal a great mystery pertaining to Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon -- a mystery that was known only to him as he prepared his ideas and stories and readied them for the dictation process in which Cowdery wrote what Smith mumbled while his head was buried in a hat. This is the key and those who know the Book of Mormon will recognize it and understand what has been in front of them all this time and they didn’t realize it until NOW:

1) Prophet Abinadi = John the Baptist (Jesus Christ)
2) Alma the elder = Peter
3) King Noah = Pilot & the Jews
4) Alma the younger = Saint Paul
5) Sons of Mosiah = apostles of the Christian church


NOW, do you understand?
All of this is fascinating, Shulem, but the parallels you found that support this idea (e.g. seven churches) kind of blew my mind.
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Re: The Key

Post by Shulem »

Hagoth wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:16 am
All of this is fascinating, Shulem, but the parallels you found that support this idea (e.g. seven churches) kind of blew my mind.

I’m pleased you’re getting something out of the thread and enjoying it. I’m thrilled that I’ve been able to blow your mind and now with a little luck, I’ll blow it some more! Let’s focus on the number 7 which Smith used in his novel to describe the formation of the Christian church under the hand of Alma in the land of Zarahemla which was the Nephite capitol city. Let’s look at the key elements in the text and consider how Smith came up with the number 7 for the Christian church, shall we? Alma’s baptizing machine must have ultimately included thousands upon thousands of new members joining the Christian church. Even king Limhi who followed him from the land of Nephi joined the church! Alma appointed teachers and priests to oversee the churches. Key points:

  • “And Alma did speak unto them, when they were assembled together in large bodies, and he went from one body to another, preaching unto the people”
Alma visited and presided over individual large bodies of people in Zarahemla while forming and establishing his religion.
  • “king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church”
Now we see that “churches” were individually formed but were part of the greater church which was entirely under Alma’s personal ministry. But how many churches would there be seeing there was so many people? We don’t know, yet.
  • “Now this was done because there were so many people that they could not all be governed by one teacher; neither could they all hear the word of God in one assembly”
Thus we see the numbers were quite vast. It would require splitting the people up into units with assigned teachers and priests presiding over them. (This sounds a bit like the modern Mormon church)
  • “Therefore they did assemble themselves together in different bodies, being called churches; every church having their priests and their teachers, and every priest preaching the word according as it was delivered to him by the mouth of Alma”
Hence, many bodies or churches were formed but so far no established number is determined. Nothing at this point is said concerning how many churches would be formed. There is no predetermined set number whether it be 12, 24, 49, 98, etc. We just know that churches are being formed. But how many?
  • “And thus, notwithstanding there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God”
There were many churches being established by Alma but it was all one church of God under Alma’s ministry.
  • “And now there were seven churches in the land of Zarahemla. And it came to pass that whosoever were desirous to take upon them the name of Christ, or of God, they did join the churches of God”
Bingo! We are *NOW* given the NUMBER in real time in the order by which things happened. It’s now given that there are a total of 7 churches forming the one church of God in Zarahemla. It can be reasoned that this was the total effect of naturally going about and building them, one by one. It’s not like Alma said he was going to form the church in Zarahemla to consist of 7 churches but it just so happened that 7 churches was the end result at that time and so it was recorded as such. This is the point when Joseph Smith thought it nice to sprinkle in a little biblical magic by tossing in the number 7 for good measure. It certainly sounds biblical because the number 7 is frequently used in the Bible but most people won’t connect that with the 7 churches of Asia in the Book of Revelation because it’s a subliminal symbol in which Smith employed to empower his story.

I argue that the 7 churches were merely the end result rather than a preordained plan and that Smith didn’t think to use the number until after all the churches were formed. If it was a predetermined number to employ then the number 7 would have been objectively stated at the beginning of the process rather than the end; much like priesthood organization: 12 deacons, 24, teachers, 48 priests, and 96 elders. Quorums are established on a predetermined number but the churches of Zarahemla were simply formed as they went about their business creating new churches and 7 just so happen to conveniently be the end result.

In contrast to that, here is an example when Joseph Smith instantly employed the biblical number 7 into a story in order to add more magic into the Book of Mormon and make it seem biblical in nature:

Alma 18:16 wrote:And it came to pass that Ammon, being filled with the Spirit of God, therefore he perceived the thoughts of the king. And he said unto him: Is it because thou hast heard that I defended thy servants and thy flocks, and slew seven of their brethren with the sling and with the sword, and smote off the arms of others, in order to defend thy flocks and thy servants; behold, is it this that causeth thy marvelings?

Seven? Yes, seven! And so what are the odds that both stories would end up with the number 7? Look, Smith was narrating stories and dressing them up the best he could.
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Re: The Key

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:58 pm
Seven? Yes, seven! And so what are the odds that both stories would end up with the number 7? Look, Smith was narrating stories and dressing them up the best he could.

Allow me to venture outside the 600 year time frame for just a moment lest we forget the little zinger thrown into the story of the Nephites banding together as one in order to protect themselves from those horrible robbers that were plundering the people (3 Nephi 3 & 4).

3 Nephi 4:4 wrote:Therefore, there was no chance for the robbers to plunder and to obtain food, save it were to come up in open battle against the Nephites; and the Nephites being in one body, and having so great a number, and having reserved for themselves provisions, and horses and cattle, and flocks of every kind, that they might subsist for the space of seven years, in the which time they did hope to destroy the robbers from off the face of the land; and thus the eighteenth year did pass away.

This is very convenient, I’d say. We have another LUCKY 7 making its way into the Book of Mormon, reminiscent of Joseph of Egypt laying up in store for 7 years of famine. Then, if you pop down to verse 30 there is an instant reminder of the God who is involved in the Nephite 7 year deal: “May the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, protect this people in righteousness.”

Smith was very articulate in ensuring that little subliminal messages were backed up and fully supported whereby further down the page the people are made to praise the Old Testament God as if Joseph of Egypt was with them in spirit for the next 7 years saying: “Yea, they did cry: Hosanna to the Most High God. And they did cry: Blessed be the name of the Lord God Almighty, the Most High God.”

You see, with all that window dressing thrown into the story it seems perfectly natural to throw in LUCKY 7, once again. Smith knew how to make his stories sound biblical and he used numbers to prop things up.
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Coincidence or a direct bullseye?

Post by Shulem »

Recall the story in Alma about the Anti-Nephi-Lehies and the righteous unarmed Lamanites that were mercilessly slain by Amalekites and Amulonites who were after the order of the Nehors. It’s certainly one of the most intense and disturbing stories in the entire Book of Mormon. It was brutal murder on a mass scale. The exact number of slain righteous Lamanites who died rather than take up arms was precisely 1,005.

Alma 24:22 wrote:And thus without meeting any resistance, they did slay a thousand and five of them; and we know that they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God.

Indeed, they were slain for the good word and testimony in which they held and they were blessed and have gone to dwell with God. Now, I ask, is there any chance at all that this number (1,005) was planted in the Book of Mormon having subliminal roots from the Bible? You be the judge and decide for yourself if Joseph Smith was planting yet another marker in his well crafted and designed novel. And, in case you aren’t familiar with the following verse, it’s highly likely that Joseph Smith was.

“And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding”

1 Kings 4:32 wrote:And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.

I trust YOU who are reading this thread and taking active interest in my presentation are not disappointed with what you are getting here on Discuss Mormonism -- live, cutting edge ideas expressed in a manner which exposes Joseph Smith’s secret acts in crafting the Book of Mormon. You’re at the right place for the right reasons. Welcome!
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Is it a coincidence?

Post by Shulem »

While I’m bringing up all these numbers in the 600 year timeline, it seems appropriate that I bring up a couple more. How does that sound? Is it possible that Smith fished the number 5,400 from the Bible in order to crib it into his novel like a spice mixed into a secret recipe? Now granted, the biblical account refers to items of gold and silver and the Book of Mormon is people who migrated to the land northward; but the point is, we have an exact number, not a match in context, but a match in numbers, nonetheless. What are the odds that both numbers would be found in both accounts?

We really wouldn’t bother looking at this if it weren’t for the fact that Smith borrowed so heavily from the Bible in so many respects -- to include lifting numbers right out of the Bible and putting them into his own book -- right there in front of your very eyes!

Ezra 1:11 wrote: All the vessels of gold and of silver were five thousand and four hundred. All these did Sheshbazzar bring up with them of the captivity that were brought up from Babylon unto Jerusalem.
Alma 63:4 wrote:And it came to pass that in the thirty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, there was a large company of men, even to the amount of five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward.

And now, another number although not exact but suggestive of two great battles taking place in a single day and it seems the Book of Mormon one-ups the Bible by giving the full number rather than just a round 12,000. Was it Smith’s idea to take the whole number from the Bible and fulfill it in his Book of Mormon? Do you think?

Joshua 8:25 wrote:And so it was, that all that fell THAT DAY, both of men and women, were TWELVE THOUSAND, even all the men of Ai.
Alma 2:19 wrote: And it came to pass that the Nephites did pursue the Amlicites all THAT DAY, and did slay them with much slaughter, insomuch that there were slain of the Amlicites TWELVE THOUSAND five hundred thirty and two souls
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Re: 600 Years in The Book of Mormon

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Fri Jun 04, 2021 3:34 am
I trust YOU who are reading this thread and taking active interest in my presentation are not disappointed with what you are getting here on Discuss Mormonism -- live, cutting edge ideas expressed in a manner which exposes Joseph Smith’s secret acts in crafting the Book of Mormon. You’re at the right place for the right reasons. Welcome!
Alma 24:22 wrote:And thus without meeting any resistance, they did slay a thousand and five of them; and we know that they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God.
1 Kings 4:32 wrote:And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.

What, you’re not convinced? It’s right there in front of your eyes, can you not see? Please, open your eyes and open your mind too! Joseph Smith ripped the number from the Bible in order to jazz up the story in his own book. The number is suppose to provide a magical undertone to influence the reader subconsciously in perceiving the story in wonder and awe. Joseph Smith knew this and thus employed important numbers in his book. He understood the value of using hidden messaging. He took full advantage of knowing how to dupe his readers into thinking they were reading something really special. He made it all up with a little help from the Bible.

So, think about it. What are the odds that “1,005” would just so happen to be the EXACT number of dead Lamanites who were horribly murdered out in the open in plain sight?

Why wasn’t it an even 1,000? Why not 1,002? Why not 607 or 708 or 902? Why wasn’t it 1,033 or 1,493 or more? Had the murdering not stopped could it have exceeded 2,000?

Look, Joseph Smith used Solomon’s number of 1,005 in order to add a little zest to his story. That’s the bottom line! Book of Mormon defenders will offer any excuse they want but the math and the odds are staring them horribly in the face and it’s like a bolt of lightning and the crack of thunder.

Folks, this is a wakeup call!
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Re: 600 Years in The Book of Mormon

Post by Shulem »

Shulem wrote:
Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:51 pm
So, think about it. What are the odds that “1,005” would just so happen to be the EXACT number of dead Lamanites who were horribly murdered out in the open in plain sight?

Why wasn’t it an even 1,000? Why not 1,002? Why not 607 or 708 or 902? Why wasn’t it 1,033 or 1,493 or more?

BECAUSE Smith was fixated on a certain number that would lend mysterious credibility to his novel on a subconscious level. It was a secret insertion known only to him but is now made known publicly for the first time here on Discuss Mormonism. I think that’s rather amazing. Don’t you?

Now, here as follows are the numbers Smith could have used to count the Lamanite dead but he chose the one that corresponded with Solomon’s songs in order to add mystique to his fabricated story of pure fiction:

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Shulem
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1,005 times

Post by Shulem »

Let’s be clear about one thing with regard to the number 1,005 used by Joseph Smith in reference to the “martyrdom” (Alma 25:8) of the Lamanites who “prostrated themselves” (Alma 24:21) in suffering their lives to be taken without any resistance or self-defense -- thereafter “they are blessed, for they have gone to dwell with their God.”

What are the odds that the number 1,005 just so happened to be the number? Well, simply put, the odds are 1 in 1,005! Isn’t that simple enough?

But wait, there’s more to it than just that. As I mentioned earlier, the number could have been much higher and thus the odds would increase. But I pointed out that Smith was ripping the number from the Bible so no need to use a higher number.

But hold on because I have evidence to support my theory that the odds truly are staggering because the number “a thousand and five” is mentioned ONE time in the whole Bible and ONE time in the Book of Mormon. The reason for that is because 1,005 is a unique number in and of itself and is rarely used in any context other than being used to number a large list. So, the number 1,005 is a rare number in and of itself -- used once in the Bible and once in the Book of Mormon. In both cases the number is used to define something unique and special. Solomon had 1,005 songs. The story of Alma tells of 1,005 martyred Lamanites who were very special indeed.

Folks, I’ve made my case.
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Sariah

Post by Shulem »

You’ve probably read faith promoting articles and heard talks about the faith and trials of Lehi and his beloved wife, Sariah. I wish to focus on a hole in the script with regard to Sariah, the grand matriarch of the Book of Mormon. The hole to which I refer is the simple fact that we are not told anything about when she died. We don’t even know if she made it to the promised land! Perhaps that information was contained in the lost 116-page manuscript in which Smith lost and could not accurately remember what happened to Sariah knowing that any differences could be challenged or exposed by those who secretly possessed the first manuscript. When Smith took up translating again through Cowdery, we are not told what became of Sariah or her final fate.

On the voyage to the promised land, Laman and Lemuel bound Nephi by tying him up with cords and treated him with “harshness” so he couldn’t move. He was in physical peril for four days and they did not loosen him. Not even the “tears” of Nephi’s wife and children could persuade them to loosen him, but he remained bound and his wrists and ankles became sorely swollen. Nonetheless, in spite of his suffering as a result of being bound, Nephi said he refused to murmur “because of mine afflictions.” But note that he suffered terribly and being afflicted he would have died had he not been relieved.

We are informed that Nephi’s “parents being stricken in years, and having suffered much grief because of their children, they were brought down, yea, even upon their sick-beds.” The situation with Nephi’s parents was dire and it appeared they were mortally sick and close to death and “they were brought near even to be carried out of this time to meet their God; yea, their grey hairs were about to be brought down to lie low in the dust; yea, even they were near to be cast with sorrow into a watery grave.”

We conclude that Lehi and Sariah were mortally ill and close to death. Sariah’s youngest sons Jacob and Joseph “were grieved because of the afflictions of their mother.” Those afflictions seem to suggest the pain of death even as Nephi would have suffered had he not been released from strangulation. So, the question is this: Was Sariah buried at sea? Obviously, Lehi recovered but the record says nothing further about Sariah. In fact, there is nothing to indicate that she ever made it to the promised land but was buried sea and this may have been mentioned in the 116-page lost manuscript that Smith forgot to mention in the second telling, thus a hole in the script.

Lehi gave his farewell speech to his family and nowhere is Sariah mentioned. It’s as though she were already dead!

“Awake! and arise from the dust, and hear the words of a trembling parent, whose limbs ye must soon lay down in the cold and silent grave, from whence no traveler can return; a few more days and I go the way of all the earth.”

Note that Lehi references himself as a “trembling parent” without mentioning his wife or the mother of his children. Lehi continues blessing his sons:

“And now my son, Laman, and also Lemuel and Sam, and also my sons who are the sons of Ishmael, behold, if ye will hearken unto the voice of Nephi ye shall not perish. And if ye will hearken unto him I leave unto you a blessing, yea, even my first blessing.”

Again, no mention of Sariah. It’s as though she doesn’t exist until Lehi addresses his youngest son, Joseph, we get a reference to Sariah as his “mother” who bore him in the wilderness many years prior before making the voyage:

“And now I speak unto you, Joseph, my last-born. Thou wast born in the wilderness of mine afflictions; yea, in the days of my greatest sorrow did thy mother bear thee.”

Young Joseph is reminded of his mother who bore him but is not given any charge concerning her now because she is nowhere present or not acknowledged as a living family member. Lehi continues:

“And now, blessed art thou, Joseph. Behold, thou art little; wherefore hearken unto the words of thy brother, Nephi, and it shall be done unto thee even according to the words which I have spoken. Remember the words of thy dying father.”

After this, Lehi called all his children together for his last words and blessing saying “I cannot go down to my grave save I should leave a blessing upon you.” Curiously, he tells them that blessings and cursing are predicated upon the principle of parents teaching their children the right way to live lest it be “answered upon the heads of your parents”, thus a reference to Sariah even if only indirectly. And that marks the end of Lehi and Sariah.

“And it came to pass after my father, Lehi, had spoken unto all his household, according to the feelings of his heart and the Spirit of the Lord which was in him, he waxed old. And it came to pass that he died, and was buried.”

No mention or sign of Saria is ever given again. It’s reasonable to assume she passed away before Lehi although the story omits this unfortunate event. Within days, Nephi separated himself from his conspiring brethren: “I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me.”

If Sariah was still alive, one would think that Nephi would have honored her and credited her survival and company with the family as the leading matriarch. I think it more likely that Sariah died at sea and never made it to the promised land. Smith’s neglect to include it in the story was at minimum an oversight or perhaps a deliberate omission, but who can say? Poor Sariah was left out and the men get all the credit.
Last edited by Shulem on Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moksha
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Re: 600 Years in The Book of Mormon

Post by Moksha »

What if Joseph simply chose not to write about anyone without a priesthood antenna?
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