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Church member wrote: [x] Yes [ ] No -- Mahalaleel was ordained at the age of 496.
[x] Yes [ ] No -- Mahalaleel was ordained exactly 7 days after he turned 496.
[x] Yes [ ] No -- I believe this knowledge is important to my salvation.

Backyard Professor wrote:What could be more important than knowing that?

D&C 107:44 wrote:Enos was ordained at the age of one hundred and thirty-four years and four months, by the hand of Adam.

Four months or four monkeys; Who cares?

Why do we need to know that Enos was ordained 4 months after his birthday? What’s the point of this useless trivia? Was it 4 months exactly or are there also days in which we are not properly informed by the super-duper revelation of D&C 107?

Why would Joseph Smith punish his followers with absurd news of the lifetime of a mythical person in the Bible? Why couldn’t Smith just say that Enos was ordained at the age of 134 and leave it at that?

Shulem wrote: ↑

Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:44 pm

Finally, what about the anomaly of Enos receiving his patriarchal ordination not just when he was 134 years old but 134 years “AND FOUR MONTHS”? This is the only time month’s are ever mentioned with regard to the age of the patriarchs. Why is four months even mentioned? What difference does it make? This break with convention seems to suggest that Smith’s mind was wondering about and attempting to create a different backdrop for his story other than what he originally planned. Perhaps Smith called to mind what Jesus said: “There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest.” (John 4:35) By the time Enos was ordained the field was white already to harvest and he became an evangelical head!

Shulem wrote: ↑

Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:49 pm

Now to turn our attention to Methuselah in the Book of Moses manuscript. Two MARKERS are attributed to him located at the lower portion of the page. The numbers are easily discernable atop heavily strikethrough text:

Old Testament Revision 1

Old Testament Revision 1 wrote:and it came to pass that Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years 218 years and begat Lamech and Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven Hundred eighty and two years and begat sons and daughters and all the days of Methuselah were were nine Hundred Sixty and nine years 1000 and he died

Both MARKERS are set as follows:

218 - 187 = 31
1000 - 969 = 31

Smith didn’t employ these MARKERS for Methuselah’s priesthood ordination age in D&C 107:50. Had he done so the age would have been 31 when he was ordained rather than “one hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam.”

So, how do we get from 31 to 100? Only Joseph Smith can effectively answer that question but at some point and for some reason he elected to yet again disregard the notations given in the manuscript and crown him at the prestigious age of 100 for his ordination. The fatherly age of 100 calls to mind the post-flood centenarian Abraham who begat Isaac when he was 100 years old. Not many fathers bear a son at age 100 or are ordained Patriarchs at that grand age! Perhaps that helped factor a change from 31 to 100. Who can say? Another important mark in time that references a 100 year anniversary being linked to priesthood ordinations is in the Book of Mormon:

4 Nephi 1:14 wrote:. . . yea, even an hundred years had passed away, and the disciples of Jesus, whom he had chosen, had all gone to the paradise of God, save it were the three who should tarry; and there were other disciples ordained in their stead;

President Smith had the ultimate advantage of controlling dictation and narration of his revelations to scribes who wrote according to his command. The office of President included all rights and privileges to documents and official papers belonging to the President of the Church. In other words, Joseph Smith could do or say whatever he wanted while dictating revelation and his word was final. The secret notation of 31 years for Methuselah’s Patriarchal Priesthood ordination penciled in the manuscript could have been used if the prophet had made that choice. But, as mentioned above, for some reason, and it’s open to pure speculation, President Smith elected to brand Methuselah’s priesthood ordination with the number 100.

Think about this: Could it be that when dictation took place during the priesthood revelation of D&C 107 to include the ordination ages of the patriarchs, there was some degree of confusion within time constraints when referencing the documents and transcripts on the prophet’s desk? Is it possible that Joseph Smith was overwhelmed in keeping track of things and simply elected to toss in the number 100 as a default number because the number 31 was lost in thought or unavailable at present?

Recall earlier that I made a solid case in showing how Smith was confused with patriarchal order beginning with Methuselah and his revelations are shown to be in error with biblical chronology!

Shulem wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 21, 2021 3:33 pm

Therefore, I conclude that Smith was confused and mistakenly attributed Methuselah as the one who ordained Noah in the D&C account. I have demonstrated that things are out of order and Smith has contradicted himself in his own revelations.

See also: Joseph Smith was confused

Note the official heading for D&C 107 seems to indicate that there may have been a degree of hastiness in transmitting the information:

SECTION 107 (Heading) wrote: ...This section was associated with the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve in February and March 1835. The Prophet likely delivered it in the presence of those who were preparing to depart May 3, 1835, on their first quorum mission.

consiglieri wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:58 pm

Color me impressed!

By any chance are you still impressed?

Recall earlier, I explained how Jared lacks a MARKER in the manuscript and I suggested a possible means in how Smith arrived at the figure 200 years for his ordination date. The explanation I tendered is plausible although it can’t be proved or disproved. It’s my subjective suggestion to the 200th degree!

But what’s fascinating about the numbers given for Jared (200) and Methuselah (100) is that they are perfect round numbers in and of themselves -- no months or days are tacked on as was the case for Enos and Mahalaleel. In connection to this, Smith’s other revelations referencing the patriarchs leads us to believe that a full accounting of their genealogy was kept in a “book of remembrance” (Moses 6:5-8) and preserved on Noah’s ark, thus the “book of the generations of Adam” ultimately fell into the hands of Moses.

Therefore, according to Smith’s restoration of the numbers given in D&C 107, we are given to conclude that the other patriarchs were ordained on their very birthdays: 69, 134, 87, 200, 25, 100, 32, 10.

Thus, no months or days are attributed with the ordination dates for eight of the patriarchs! As far as I’m concerned, Smith’s revelations are inconsistent and don’t add up. The whole thing is bogus and entirely fictitious. Smith was pulling the wool over the eyes of those who believed him.

STRIKE 1

A FACSIMILE FROM THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM NO. 3 wrote:Fig. 2. King Pharaoh, whose name is given in the characters above his head.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 107:46 wrote:Mahalaleel was four hundred and ninety-six years and seven days old when he was ordained by the hand of Adam, who also blessed him.

STRIKE 2

A FACSIMILE FROM THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM NO. 3 wrote:Fig. 5. Shulem, one of the king’s principal waiters, as represented by the characters above his hand.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 107:47 wrote:Jared was two hundred years old when he was ordained under the hand of Adam, who also blessed him.

STRIKE 3

A FACSIMILE FROM THE BOOK OF ABRAHAM NO. 3 wrote:Fig. 6. Olimlah, a slave belonging to the prince.

Doctrine and Covenants Section 107:52 wrote:Noah was ten years old when he was ordained under the hand of Methuselah.

OUT!

Brother Jack wrote:I refuse to believe that Mahalaleel was four hundred and ninety-six years and seven days old when he was ordained by the hand of Adam!

President Nelson wrote:Do I believe Methuselah was one hundred years old when he was ordained and Noah was just ten years old when he was ordained?

Shulem wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:01 pm

Brack wrote: ↑

Wed Jun 30, 2021 2:47 pm

Because Lamech had a word of wisdom problem. He had a habit of drinking of the wine.

Well, the Bible doesn’t mention anything about Lamech having a word of wisdom problem whether it be wine or chewing tobacco but we do know that his son Noah whom Smith said was ordained at age 10 by his grandfather did in fact have a word of wisdom problem. You only need to turn to the Bible to learn that Noah was a drunk and somewhat untidy, perhaps even lewd.

Genesis 9:2--22 wrote:And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

I do have more to say about Smith’s alleged ordination of a 10-year old boy being ordained by the grandfather rather than the father or the senior patriarch alive at that time. I suspect, it’s possible, Smith messed up and may have mistakenly thought Methuselah was the father of Noah and never realized his error.

Genesis 4:
[18] And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.
[19] And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
[23] And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt.
[24] If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.

Genesis 5:
[25] And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
[26] And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
[28] And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
[30] And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
[31] And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.


I always thought that Lamech of Genesis Chapter 4 was a different Lamech of Genesis Chapter 5. But these two men may have been originally been the same person. I recently purchased a book title, "(Mis)interpreting Genesis How the Creation Museum Misunderstands the Ancient Near Eastern Context of the Bible," and this book implies that Lamech of Genesis Chapter 4 is the same Lamech of Genesis Chapter 5.
Here is Page #179

The fact that Lamech, the seventh born in Gen 4, would be avenged "seventy seven times" (verse 24) and died at the age of 777 is probably significant.

And Page #183:

As a final example, I have also pointed to Lamech's seventh placement in Genesis 4 and death at 777 years.

Link

Brack wrote: ↑

Sat May 18, 2024 8:08 pm

I always thought that Lamech of Genesis Chapter 4 was a different Lamech of Genesis Chapter 5.

There are two Lamechs in early Bible chronology:

The first was Lamech the son of Methushael and the second Lamech was the son of Methuselah.

Wikipedia:

Lamech (descendant of Cain)
Lamech (father of Noah)