Shout Out to Shulem!

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7109
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Shulem »

Lem wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:34 pm
1. First 'eyewitness' wrote his account in 1848, and backdated it to 1841. Even BYU article admits this, but only in one appendix, which admits the entry in question contains, almost word for word, a times and seasons article from 1842 with B of A paragraphs, and his 'eyewitness' matches, almost word for word, the description of the evil priest with a knife in the same times and seasons article.

I've studied this pretty carefully and don't believe it was a backdated account on the part of Appleby. I will review this again as I have time. Every bit of new information and insight is helpful.

Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene
William Appleby journal
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7109
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Shulem »

consiglieri wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:42 pm
Just got off the phone with Professor Hauglid. As one who has examined the papyrus up close and personal, it is his opinion the pencil is OVER the glue.

So clear is this in his mind, he has wondered whether the pencil was drawn there as late as the 20th Century.

While the dating of the pencil marks is pure speculation, it is his opinion that whenever the pencil marks were drawn, it was sometime AFTER the glued piece came off.

He also mentioned there was a lot of time and opportunity for papyri pieces to come off naturally between 1835 and 1842 and lots of moving going on between Ohio and Missouri and Illinois.

Wow. Okay, just wow. Professor Hauglid can be trusted and his judgment is probably spot on.

Now, to take this matter to a new level....

:P
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9122
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Dem Bones!

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:08 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me,

Perhaps the sketch artist wanted to include more dry bones while figuring the fingers were dry bones in themselves. Could it be that the sketch artist simply wanted to match the finger bones? Provide more bones?

A shoulder bone.
An arm bone.
A hand bone.
I had a similar thought. My guess is they original thought the man on the 'couch' or 'table' was dead and being prepared for whatever because of the organ containers below. I just wonder if they would've known that about removing the internal organs at the time, but since you posted above (that excerpt) it was possible they did then that makes sense to me.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
Kukulkan
High Priest
Posts: 361
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:36 pm
Location: Slipping deeper into the earth

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Kukulkan »

I know this might be way out there but I would like to know what you all think. As we know, Facsimile No.1 is a fairly common depicted scene from the myth of Osiris where Isis copulates with Osiris and eventually gives birth to Horus. Below is a picture from the Great Temple of Abydos. Here we see a variant of the same myth portrayed in Facsimile No.1 where Isis is impregnated by Osiris. Note the chiseled out phallus that would have been protruding from the mummy of Osiris (this also refutes the apologetic argument that the figure on the lion bed in Facsimile No.1 couldn't have been ithyphallic because he is clothed. The Osiris depicted here is most obviously depicted as wrapped as a mummy, yet still is ithyphallic). Also note the depiction of Isis in bird form above the phallus and also note the position of her wings. This will be important later. Lastly, note the two other birds at the food and head of the lion bed facing Osiris. This will also be of import.

Image

Below is a depiction of the same scene from the Temple of Opet. In the same fashion the phallus of Osiris was chiseled away (most likely from conquerors of the area that deemed it too vulgar). Similar to the image above, Isis is hovering above waiting to copulate with Osiris. One wing extended to the right and the other facing down at an angle.

Image

Looking at Facsimile No.1 I wonder if what we have interpreted as the hands of the figure laying down are actually the ends of wings of Isis that would have been protruding out similar to the images above. If imagined, the positioning of Isis above Osiris would be perfectly fit in the scene where she is impregnated by Osiris. What if the hands of the figure laying down extend somewhere else within the lacunae. The bird figure with no head that we have decidedly labeled as Isis could be a depiction of Nephthys (who is another goddess associated with this myth, she helps Isis find the body of Osiris), or even a depiction of Horus who is often included in this scene despite not being born, or even a artistic implementation like the falcons depicted in the Abydos picture above. Perhaps when the documents were first received by Joseph and glued onto the parchment he wasn't prepared to attribute this facsimile to the story of Abraham. Once he decided to do so, Joseph obviously couldn't include a ithyphallic depiction of Abraham and tore this portion of the papyrus out and in the process accidentally removing other portions of the papyrus (head of Anubis, head of bird). A good representation of what it may have looked like is on MormonThink.

This may actually also tie into the whole glue conundrum. Joseph purchases documents from Michael Chandler --> Glues down documents on parchment to preserve them in preparation for translation(revelation?) --> Decides to attribute Facsimile No.1 to the story of Abraham but can't because of the phallus --> Rips out the depicted phallus and head of Anubis to fit the story --> Draws over to 'restore' the image in the process giving Anubis a human head and attributing the wing tips to the hands of the figure laying down.

Again I know this is far out there but I am bored and thought what the hell might as well waste an hour of my life researching all this stuff.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9122
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Kukulkan wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:27 am
and attributing the wing tips to the hands of the figure laying down.
Oh, wow. That really makes a lot of sense. Especially considering how the 'fingers' are drawn the idea that they're actually wing tips fits really well.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 6991
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Jersey Girl »

Where in the hell is Sofee??? :shock:
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7109
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Shulem »

Kukulkan,

Welcome to the board and thank you for the wonderful contributions. You make lots of interesting and valid points in trying to understand the mystery of the Joseph Smith papyrus and how it was employed in introducing the Book of Abraham to the early Latter-day Saints. This board provides a wonderful opportunity to explore and experiment with the cause in trying to figure it all out. It's like a giant black board full of all kinds input.

I for one will take into consideration everything you pointed above and apply it to my own working theories. You are most welcome to add and contribute according to your desires and passions.
Lem
God
Posts: 2456
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:46 am

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Lem »

Shulem wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:45 pm
Lem wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:34 pm
1. First 'eyewitness' wrote his account in 1848, and backdated it to 1841. Even BYU article admits this, but only in one appendix, which admits the entry in question contains, almost word for word, a times and seasons article from 1842 with B of A paragraphs, and his 'eyewitness' matches, almost word for word, the description of the evil priest with a knife in the same times and seasons article.

I've studied this pretty carefully and don't believe it was a backdated account on the part of Appleby. I will review this again as I have time. Every bit of new information and insight is helpful.

Pearl of Great Price Central Facsimile 1 as a Sacrifice Scene
William Appleby journal
Here is what I was looking at:
Transcript of William I. Appleby’s Journal Entry, 5 May 1841, Pages 73–75 (Washington)
Editorial Note Washington, catalogued as MS 1401 in the Church History Library, contains Abraham 1:15–31; dated
5 May 1841 (but see below); handwriting of William I. Appleby; 3 lined pages in journal. Washington contains the exact paragraph numbering as the first installment in the Times and Seasons,

suggesting that Appleby inserted the Abraham text after its publication in 1842. This is quite possible, as Appleby used the word insert here and in other entries in his journal when he provides additional material. Many of the insertions in his journal, including the Abraham text, likely coincide with Appleby’s later efforts to produce his memoirs....

https://scholarsarchive.BYU.edu/cgi/vie ... additional
User avatar
Shulem
God
Posts: 7109
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:40 am
Location: Facsimile No. 3

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Shulem »

Lem wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:52 am
Here is what I was looking at:

Right, all that information is copied into Hauglid's paper that I linked above. I gave my reasons why it was not backdated as Hauglid suggested that it might be. Hauglid was wrong in allowing for the backdating -- and I'm confident I made my case.

Now, I want to discuss a highly credible eyewitness that I believe saw the actual vignette of Facsimile No.1 *BEFORE* it was printed and that this person was made aware of at least the first part of the translation of the Book of Abraham that was later published in the Times and Seasons. The first chapter of the Book of Abraham was fully translated long before publication. There has been a sustained debate on what got translated and when but there can be no doubt that there was written text of chapter 1 that stands apart from the working Kirtland manuscripts. Along with that, I believe the papyrus vignette of the lion bed was contained in a glass frame in which the eyewitness account that I wish to discuss offered his own explanation in his personal journal dated at 5 May 1841 -- predating publication of the Times and Seasons.

"Hauglid details the textual variations but I would like to make a comparison to show that what Appleby recorded in May of 1841 had to have been a different transcript then the final one used for the 1842 publication in the Times and Seasons. In other words, Appleby didn't back date and copy from the Times and Seasons!"


I feel pretty good about closing Hauglid's back door in allowing for the possibility that Appleby account was backdated. I believe Appleby wrote in REAL TIME and I think my case in proving that is rock solid. He was an eyewitness.

William Appleby journal
Post by Shulem » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:25 am
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5133
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Shout Out to Shulem!

Post by Philo Sofee »

Sorry so late. Looks like you have it under control Shulem! Good job.
Post Reply