Missionary Funds and Tithing--Separate?

[_SatanWasSetUp]

You don't have to pay on gross income, by the way, it's your personal decision - right from the mouth of President Faust some years ago. But of course, anything is open to change.

Then again, Pres. Faust was the one who praised those South American LDS for tearing the fillings clean out of their heads in order to fund the Porto Allegre Temple.

Isn't President Faust dead? Whatever he said about tithing, whether you should pay with your fillings or just on net income, was just his personal opinion.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sorry but, you are one of the more blessed if you can purchase a house, pay tithing and have a savings account.

You should be sacrificing big time!

Think of all the families who are paying tithing rather than taking care of their children, getting a retirement fund going, or even paying their bills. Families who are unable to get an education, insurance, or even decent food because they are paying their tithing.

I hear your pain but seriously Asbestosman, as I said, you are one of the more fortunate!

Oh come on. Most active LDS I know are able to contribute tithes and offerings and afford a home. And no my ward is not affluent

I don't think so Jason.

don't think what? That the active LDS I know that pay tithes and offerings are able to afford a home?

My understanding is that only a minority of LDS members (including active ones) pay a full tithe.

I would imagine that out of all members it is small. As for active members I can only go by my experience and I guess how you define active. I think the definition of active my include paying tithes. But if it means just someone who attends on Sunday I still think most of those pay tithe. At least in my ward and stake they do.

The Church is heavily dependent on North American contributions to subsidize the international Church (and not only because the donations are larger, but also due to low incidence of tithe paying outside of N. America)

The context of my comments should be reflected for US and Canadian members.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi Jason,

Sorry I was not more specific.

That's ok.

Of course I was referring to the many members throughout the world. There are many members living in near squalor but paying tithing.

I would guess that people in this situation would still be there with or without tithing.

Even the more wealthy in places like Sweden, members do not own homes but pay tithing.

THis is a pretty general statement. How do you know this? What other factors come into play? Would they be able to buy a home if they did not tithe?

And you know that many members pay tithing and are in dept upto their ears.

Some are and some are not. So what? Is tithing the direct cause of their debt?

How many leaders would suggest one begins a retirement fund rather than pay tithing? I mean lets be real here! (smile)

None at all. They always say tithe first.

The fact that a couple can pay tithing, own a home, AND have a savings account is not the norm. It is the wealthy exception.

The fact is this is not a fact. There are lots of different reasons for this. As for the norm, all I can go on is the limited experience I have in my ward and stake and it is a fairly middle class ward and stake. And most the active member that tithe own a home and are putting money in retirement. I have no idea what their debt is save a few close friends and of course my own financial picture.

But I think you do not know the facts anymore then I do accept based on your own personal experience unless you have empirical evidence.

[_Jason Bourne]

Criticizing the church - It's a slippery slope to apostasy. Enjoy the ride. :)

for what it's worth, I'm not blaming the church, nor am I blaming GA's or whatnot. I'm blaming my EQ pres for giving me a guilt-trip. My previous ward was not like this. I'm also blaming the irresponsible missionary who went out without trying to line up how to pay for his mission.

Why was the EQ pres on this rant? THis is really a bishop thing. If ward missionary funds are down and a missionary from the ward needs help with paying ofr a mission the bishop usually is the one who looks to rallying the troops to raise the funds. He can do it through general statements, talks, requests etc. Sometimes he may ask some members that have means to help out. But not the EQ president.

The Church has two types of missionary funds-Ward and General. You can designate on your donation slip which fund you want to give to. Lots of times members in my ward will through in $5 or $10 extra in a donation and designate as Ward Missionary Funds. Those can accumulate and be there when there is a need. Also, a ward that has excessive funds can transfer the funds to another ward in their stake that may have needs or oven to the general fund if they want.

[_Jason Bourne]

Maybe you could offer to pay more if it is purchase into stock for the new mall downtown?

I was watching a television documentary yesterday about Brigham Young in early Utah days. He had offered jobs to a great number of men for the building of the railroad with the contractual understanding the Union Pacific would pay up at the completion of the job. With over a million dollars due to these men for labor, the railroad refused to pay up, and the financial hardship caused by the situation nearly broke the back of these good workers. In an effort to ease the hardship, BY suspended tithe paying. He suspended it! I had never known this before.

I think that is what the church should do for the month of December as a Christmas present to all of the members.

The history of tithing and how much, what % and what it was paid on, as well as whether one needed to pay it for say a recommend, or even to not be booted out, is very interesting. Not a cut a dry story atall.

[_asbestosman]

How many leaders would suggest one begins a retirement fund rather than pay tithing? I mean lets be real here! (smile)

None. Tithes always come first, but I don't know any that say you should donate more to fast offerings or a missionary fund instead of retirement.

[_asbestosman]

Why was the EQ pres on this rant? THis is really a bishop thing.

Agreed.

Lots of times members in my ward will through in $5 or $10 extra in a donation and designate as Ward Missionary Funds. Those can accumulate and be there when there is a need.

If it were just $5 or $10 a month, then I wouldn't feel bad at all. I can afford to help that much. It's just that the rant made me feel like I was supposed to give even more. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding on my part. I certainly hope so.

[_Zoidberg]

Why was the EQ pres on this rant? THis is really a bishop thing.

Agreed.

Lots of times members in my ward will through in $5 or $10 extra in a donation and designate as Ward Missionary Funds. Those can accumulate and be there when there is a need.

If it were just $5 or $10 a month, then I wouldn't feel bad at all. I can afford to help that much. It's just that the rant made me feel like I was supposed to give even more. Maybe it was just a misunderstanding on my part. I certainly hope so.

Although I don't put much stock into personal revelation in terms of accuracy, this is for you and only for you to determine if and how much you should give to whom. The EQ can go multiply and replenish the Earth (you know what I mean).

[_Phaedrus Ut]

Asbestosman,

I don't know if this was addressed in the thread prior(I didn't read through) but to answer your question the specifics of the church's financial operations can't be known in detail due to the secrecy but the operations for the UK are subject to public filing. From my look over the financial statements contributions to the missionary fund are considered "restricted income" and therefore is used for only that purpose. However general donations made to the the church without designation are not considered restricted and can therefore be used for any purpose.

However if you look closely at the UK expenditures the church is paying out less in missionary support than they are taking in therefore accruing a growing "unpaid balance". I started a small thread on the subject on MAD a few months ago you can read it HERE

So theoretically tithing can be used for anything, and missionary donations are restricted.


Phaedrus

//I tried directing my link to the thread through, tinyurl, shorturl, decenturl and all of them failed. It's pathetic the persecution complex it takes to block linking to threads on a message board.

[_asbestosman]

However if you look closely at the UK expenditures the church is paying out less in missionary support than they are taking in therefore accruing a growing "unpaid balance". I started a small thread on the subject on MAD a few months ago you can read it HERE

So theoretically tithing can be used for anything, and missionary donations are restricted.

That is interesting. On the one hand tithing could be used for missionary work, but then I think I can see the case where the church would not want tithing money spent on missionary work since there is already a fund that cannot be spent for anything other than missionary work. I guess that makes sense in a way.

On the other hand, I guess the UK is receiving more than is spends on missionary work. However, this may be done in part to help missionaries from even poorer countries afford the work. The extra would therefore go to other missions. But thinking furhter, I would also expect the UK mission to be one of the most expensive. I know that Holland was more expensive that what my parents were paying for me. Of course, they may have made up for it with the funds they paid for a brother to go to Haiti too.

Still, even if the UK is running an unpaid balance, I could see how my local ward might be running into trouble on a missionary. If so, I can easily imagine pressure from above to solve it locally as our ward would probably be viewed as wealthy enough to cover for this.