Journey of Faith: The New World (dvd)

[_Trevor]

I have to hand it to you, beastie. You sure have a high tolerance for enduring pointless B.S. I can't imagine actually spending my time arguing with people over the finer details of an ancient Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. Yawn.

[_beastie]

Interestingly, and in my view somewhat oddly, Teotihuacan was mentioned at length. I suppose they wanted to mention it due to the fact that they think it provides a good hit for the cement cities mentioned in the Book of Mormon, which apologists say critics used to focus on (I am not familiar with that particular criticism, but will take their word for it.)

Teotihuacan was an immense polity – in fact, up until the Aztec polity, the most powerful polity of all time in ancient Mesoamerica. It was to the north, outside of the Book of Mormon region, according to Sorenson’s geography, which the dvd used. It is also one of the most famous Mesoamerican cities, and lots of information is available regarding it.

http://archaeology.asu.edu/teo/intro/intrteo.htm

Teotihuacan arose as a new religious center in the Mexican Highland, around the time of Christ. Although its incipient period (the first two centuries B.C.) is poorly understood, archaeological data show that the next two centuries (Tzacualli to Miccaotli phases; A.D. 1-200) were characterized by monumental construction, during which Teotihuacan quickly became the largest and most populous urban center in the New World. By this time, the city already appears to have expanded to approximately 20 square km, with about 60,000 to 80,000 inhabitants (Millon 1981:221). The development of the city seems to have involved inter-site population movements, exploitation of natural resources, an increase in agricultural production, technological inventions, establishment of trading systems and other kinds of socio-political organizations, and attractive belief systems. By the fourth century, unmistakable influences of Teotihuacan were felt throughout most parts of Mesoamerica. Teotihuacan was the sixth largest city in the world during its period of greatest prosperity, according to an estimated population of 125,000 (Millon 1993:33). The city seems to have functioned for centuries as a well-developed urban center until its rather sudden collapse, possibly in the seventh century. The place was called Teotihuacan by Nahuatl speakers several centuries after the city's fall, but its original name, the language or languages spoken there, and the ethnic groups who built the city are still unknown.

First, the concrete issue. Teotihuacan used a known Mesoamerican building technique with such enthusiasm that they succeeded in destroying their polity – the technique of plastering monuments and buildings. The plaster was created by burning limestone, which required an intense heat, constant fire, and huge amounts of wood. This eventually resulted in the deforestation of the area, which created an ecological disaster that destroyed the polity.

This creates an exciting “hit” for some apologists, due to these verses in the Book of Mormon, Helaman 3:

1 And now it came to pass in the *forty and third year of the reign of the judges, there was no contention among the people of Nephi save it were a little pride which was in the church, which did cause some little dissensions among the people, which affairs were settled in the ending of the forty and third year.
2 And there was no contention among the people in the forty and fourth year; neither was there much contention in the forty and fifth year.
3 And it came to pass in the *forty and sixth, yea, there was much contention and many dissensions; in the which there were an exceedingly great many who departed out of the land of Zarahemla, and went forth unto the land anorthward to inherit the land.
4 And they did travel to an exceedingly great distance, insomuch that they came to alarge bodies of water and many rivers.
5 Yea, and even they did spread forth into all parts of the land, into whatever parts it had not been rendered desolate and without timber, because of the many inhabitants who had before inherited the land.
6 And now no part of the land was desolate, save it were for timber; but because of the greatness of the adestruction of the people who had before inhabited the land it was called bdesolate.
7 And there being but little timber upon the face of the land, nevertheless the people who went forth became exceedingly aexpert in the working of cement; therefore they did build houses of cement, in the which they did dwell.
8 And it came to pass that they did multiply and spread, and did go forth from the land southward to the land northward, and did spread insomuch that they began to cover the face of the whole earth, from the sea south to the sea north, from the sea awest to the sea east.
9 And the people who were in the land northward did dwell in atents, and in houses of cement, and they did suffer whatsoever tree should spring up upon the face of the land that it should grow up, that in time they might have timber to build their houses, yea, their cities, and their temples, and their bsynagogues, and their sanctuaries, and all manner of their buildings.
10 And it came to pass as timber was exceedingly scarce in the land northward, they did send forth much by the way of ashipping.
11 And thus they did enable the people in the land northward that they might build many cities, both of wood and of cement.

The apparent problem is that the Book of Mormon claims that the people became experts in making houses out of cement due to the lack of timber, and whenever a tree grew, they used it to build buildings. This is completely backward from what occurred in Teotihuacan. The deforestation of Teotihuacan was the result of the excessive use of plaster for their buildings. They did not use plaster/concrete due to lack of timber.

In addition to trying to create this link, some of the experts seem to be making another connection as well:

Archaeological investigations there (Teotihuacan) have placed the rise of that city at, interestingly, the time when Nephite immigrants are coming out of the land southward in the middle of the first century BC.

This one really left me scratching my head. What was he trying to say? Was he insinuating that the Nephites actually either founded or contributed to its rise as a power? I really have no idea what the point of that comment was. The idea that Teotihuacan could have been influenced by Nephites in any way is outlandish. Its powerful cultural imprint is clear and marked throughout the rest of Mesoamerica, and that imprint had nothing to do with some Judeo Christian transplant.

But the experts went on to assert that:

The Nephites, as long as they were contemporary to Teotihuacan, they would definitely had known about each other.

And later statements seemed to insinuate that the Nephites were smack in the middle between Teotihuacan and powerful Mesoamerican polities like Tikal, and that’s why they were destroyed.

What strikes me so strange about this is that it makes the Nephites a very significant force to deal with, hardly some small, insignificant, unnoticeable polity hidden away within the larger culture. In fact, I would cite this is the biggest problem in this entire dvd – it all presented the Nephites as a powerful, significant polity in Mesoamerica. This is a problem for the reason that this powerful polity has left no apparent trace or impact on Mesoamerica. If the Nephite polity were so powerful that the Teotihuacan were aware of them, and targeted them for destruction to get to Tikal, then they would have had an impact on the rest of Mesoamerica, and the hard fact is that the history of ancient Mesoamerica was not impacted whatsoever by the Nephites – otherwise we would find evidence of their existence.

[_beastie]

I have to hand it to you, beastie. You sure have a high tolerance for enduring pointless B.S. I can't imagine actually spending my time arguing with people over the finer details of an ancient Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. Yawn.

It does get annoying and/or boring at times, which is why I stopped going to places like MAD, where I'd been drawn into more active arguments quite a bit. So now I do it on a much more limited basis.

But there are two reasons I still do it - one is that I'm fascinated by ancient Mesoamerica, and not many people share that interest. People in my real life find my fascination with this ancient culture odd. So, in a twisted way, it's nice to talk to people who are somewhat interested in it, even for their own agenda.

The second reason is that I have a family member who went out of her way to locate information about the Book of Mormon historicity, and she was given very misleading information from FARMs. I think that people who actually go out of their way to find information should be given as accurate information as possible, and it is unethical for the FARMers to engage in misleading language if they know better. I guess it is arguable whether or not they know better, but some of these examples are so egregious and obvious, it's hard to believe they don't.

[_Trevor]

The second reason is that I have a family member who went out of her way to locate information about the Book of Mormon historicity, and she was given very misleading information from FARMs. I think that people who actually go out of their way to find information should be given as accurate information as possible, and it is unethical for the FARMers to engage in misleading language if they know better. I guess it is arguable whether or not they know better, but some of these examples are so egregious and obvious, it's hard to believe they don't.

Mistakes that egregious raise the question of a general ethical failure on the part of FARMS, if that has not already been raised in many other ways (and I think it has been).