Biblical justification of...

[_Roger Morrison]

...prejudice, anti-social behaviour, ignorance and inhumanities, sited below by John Selby Spong:

There is also a widely accepted mentality that if the Bible is opposed, the idea must be wrong. That is little more than nonsensical fundamentalism. The rise of democracy was contrary to the "clear teaching of the Bible." as the debate over the forced signing of the Magna Carta by King John of England in 1215 revealed. The Bible was quoted to prove that Galileo was wrong; that Darwin was wrong; that Freud was wrong; and that allowing women to be educated, to vote, to enter the professions, and to be ordained was wrong. So the fact that the Bible is quoted to prove that homosexuality is evil and to be condemned is hardly a strong argument, given the history of how many times the Bible has been wrong. I believe that most bishops know this but the Episcopal Church has some fundamentalist bishops and a few who are "fellow travelers" with fundamentalists

The Bible was written between the years 1000 B.C.E. and 135 C.E. Our knowledge of almost everything has increased exponentially since that time. It is the height of ignorance to continue using the Bible as an encyclopedia of knowledge to keep dying prejudices intact. The media seems to cooperate in perpetuating that long ago abandoned biblical attitude.

That is not surprising since the religious people keep quoting it to justify their continued state of unenlightenment. That attitude is hardly worthy of the time it takes to engage it. I do not debate with members of the flat Earth society either. Prejudices all die. The first sign that death is imminent comes when the prejudice is debated publicly. The tragedy is that church leaders back the wrong side of the conflict, which is happening today from the Pope to the Archbishop of Canterbury to the current crop of Evangelical leaders. That too will pass and the debate on homosexuality will be just one more embarrassment in Christian history.

John Shelby Spong

Since the above is a matter of historical record, is there a way of lobying current CHURCH LEADERS to reconsider their positions on the anti-Christ policies that they advocate, and or tolerate? War, prejudice, exploitation, poverty, ignorance, profiteering, inhumanities, wealth and resource disparities...

Gotta wonder what the force of two-plus-billion "Christians" could do IF they were lead by properly educated--not indoctrinated--folks?? Thoughts? Roger

[_richardMdBorn]

.Gotta wonder what the force of two-plus-billion "Christians" could do IF they were lead by properly educated--not indoctrinated--folks?? Thoughts? Roger

ie. properly educated is agreeing with Spong (and Roger).

The rise of democracy was contrary to the "clear teaching of the Bible." as the debate over the forced signing of the Magna Carta by King John of England in 1215 revealed.

Yes, and passages like

4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;

5and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."

6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us " And Samuel prayed to the LORD.

7The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

1 Sam 8

prove his point.

[_the road to hana]

...prejudice, anti-social behaviour, ignorance and inhumanities, sited below by John Selby Spong:

There is also a widely accepted mentality that if the Bible is opposed, the idea must be wrong. That is little more than nonsensical fundamentalism. The rise of democracy was contrary to the "clear teaching of the Bible." as the debate over the forced signing of the Magna Carta by King John of England in 1215 revealed. The Bible was quoted to prove that Galileo was wrong; that Darwin was wrong; that Freud was wrong; and that allowing women to be educated, to vote, to enter the professions, and to be ordained was wrong. So the fact that the Bible is quoted to prove that homosexuality is evil and to be condemned is hardly a strong argument, given the history of how many times the Bible has been wrong. I believe that most bishops know this but the Episcopal Church has some fundamentalist bishops and a few who are "fellow travelers" with fundamentalists

The Bible was written between the years 1000 B.C.E. and 135 C.E. Our knowledge of almost everything has increased exponentially since that time. It is the height of ignorance to continue using the Bible as an encyclopedia of knowledge to keep dying prejudices intact. The media seems to cooperate in perpetuating that long ago abandoned biblical attitude.

That is not surprising since the religious people keep quoting it to justify their continued state of unenlightenment. That attitude is hardly worthy of the time it takes to engage it. I do not debate with members of the flat Earth society either. Prejudices all die. The first sign that death is imminent comes when the prejudice is debated publicly. The tragedy is that church leaders back the wrong side of the conflict, which is happening today from the Pope to the Archbishop of Canterbury to the current crop of Evangelical leaders. That too will pass and the debate on homosexuality will be just one more embarrassment in Christian history.

John Shelby Spong

Since the above is a matter of historical record, is there a way of lobying current CHURCH LEADERS to reconsider their positions on the anti-Christ policies that they advocate, and or tolerate? War, prejudice, exploitation, poverty, ignorance, profiteering, inhumanities, wealth and resource disparities...

Gotta wonder what the force of two-plus-billion "Christians" could do IF they were lead by properly educated--not indoctrinated--folks?? Thoughts? Roger

I'm not sure all church leaders "back the wrong side of the conflict." A number of denominations, and their leaders, have been advancing social justice issues in recent years. The United Methodist Church is a good example of this, the Universalist Unitarians, even other mainstream religions like the Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Catholics. I think even those among us who don't necessarily subscribe to their particular denominational beliefs can find writings of all those religions that advance social justice causes we can support and applaud, and it isn't all that difficult to find evidence of them (do a search for social justice *insert name of religion here like Episcopal, Catholic, etc.*).

[_Roger Morrison]

.Gotta wonder what the force of two-plus-billion "Christians" could do IF they were lead by properly educated--not indoctrinated--folks?? Thoughts? Roger

ie. properly educated is agreeing with Spong (and Roger).

The rise of democracy was contrary to the "clear teaching of the Bible." as the debate over the forced signing of the Magna Carta by King John of England in 1215 revealed.

Yes, and passages like

4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah;

5and they said to him, "Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations."

6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, "Give us a king to judge us " And Samuel prayed to the LORD.

7The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

1 Sam 8

prove his point.

Hi Richard, you an early-bird too, eh :) An interesting reference. Seems like current conditions existed in those days too. Corrupt leaders--Church & State--more interested in "...lucre...and perverted judgement..." than in the "Lord's" ways. You'll find them in the Mount Sermon.

With your vision, i thought you might have seen the need to get the "Christian-act" together?? Seems Sam, in v 11, of c8 pretty much describes what's happening now. Wouldn't you say? To justify the same power appetite of lip-service christians, "...wolves in sheeps clothing..." Just gotta get back to Jesus... Don't you agree? My question is still, "How best to do that?" Constructive comment will be appreciated... Warm regards, Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks Road, you said:

I'm not sure all church leaders "back the wrong side of the conflict." A number of denominations, and their leaders, have been advancing social justice issues in recent years. The United Methodist Church is a good example of this, the Universalist Unitarians, even other mainstream religions like the Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Catholics. I think even those among us who don't necessarily subscribe to their particular denominational beliefs can find writings of all those religions that advance social justice causes we can support and applaud, and it isn't all that difficult to find evidence of them (do a search for social justice *insert name of religion here like Episcopal, Catholic, etc.*).

To which I agree. Yes, those few out of the vast sectarian number are "doing something", commendable. I think though, even in those sects there remains considerable compromise that I think will be less-so in coming generations of more aware, and conscienced folks. I am really encouraged by the questioning of SOME of today's young people. My grandchildren are away ahead of where I was at their age. They ARE our future's hope... Warm regards, Roger