I got nailed...

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_Mike Reed
_Emeritus
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Experience in Interfaith Dialogue?

Post by _Mike Reed »

mentalgymnast wrote:Those of you who have heard of Robert Millet know that he is a respected scholar from BYU who has had a significant amount of experience in interfaith dialogue.


A couple months ago I emailed Millet inquiring him about his book, "What Happened to the Cross?" He seemed to be quite open and willing to converse with me until I started showing him specific problems in his book. Then, suddenly... he stopped emailing me back. Strange.

This is the last email that I sent him:

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Hello Dr. Millet. Having purchased and read your new book last week, I have another question for you... if you wouldn't mind. You wrote on page 102:
We should note that historically, in the first few Christian centuries, the cross was not considered a virtuous or admirable symbol but rather a terrifying reminder of what Jesus and many thousands of others had ignominiously suffered. In fact, some scholars report that the cross did not appear in churches as a symbol of veneration until A.D. 431.

No source is given for this underlined statement, and so I am wondering what the basis is for it.

I am well aware of the fact that archaeologists and art historians generally agree that the symbol of the cross (in reference to the passion event) cannot be found prior to the time of Constantine . But does this absence demand the conclusion that the cross therefore was not considered virtuous?

Literary evidence suggests the contrary, and also gives clues as to why the symbol (considered virtuous) was not depicted materially. My research leads me to believe that there were three factors contributing to this absence (I can provide the evidence if needed):

1) Christians, due to persecutions, were forced to worship inconspicuously.
2) The idea that Jesus was killed on the cross was not a good selling point for attracting converts. As Paul reported, it was a stumbling block to both Jew and Gentile; and as is evident by the Palatine graffiti, Christians were mocked because of it.
3) Many Christians avoided artistic depictions of the sacred for fear that they would be committing idolatry.

Christians were able to get around these reservations, and still revere the symbol, by actively looking for its manifestation all around them, whether it be in the form of man, sail of a ship, or the sacred Greek letter tau. Some early Christians also traced the cross/tau on their forehead... which also was a way to get around the three factors.

Since this behavior is not in harmony with the LDS view, and since the three factors are not relevant to the LDS church today... it therefore seems out of place for Latter-day Saints to use the archaeological absence as a justification for their own aversion. No doubt, many early Christians would have stood in objection to placing gold-leafed angels on top of their buildings, on grounds of factors one and three.

--Mike Reed
Last edited by Hawkeye on Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
_Mike Reed
_Emeritus
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Re: Spinzone

Post by _Mike Reed »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Mike Reed wrote: I've thought about writing a review of this book, entitled "What Happened to the Cross in 'What Happened to the Cross?'"

Maybe I will get around to it after I complete my thesis.

Holy coincidence batman!

I was at Deseret Book a few minutes ago, and was eye-balling that book. I was planning on shooting you a PM asking if you had read it and if the title did justice to the meat of the book.

The gods have given me a gift today… and it is in the form of a little extra cash in my wallet. (I did end up buying all three volumes of “Standing on the Promises” though only to notice after I bought them that they are novels… grrrrr…)


LOL! That's funny!

Yeah... I was disappointed when I read the book... but part of me was pleased, as I was glad that Millet didn't beat me to the punch.

The book isn't entirely bad, though. What I liked most was his section that debunks the popular Mormon folk-doctrine that Jesus suffered for sin in the Garden, and not on the cross.
_evolving
_Emeritus
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Re: Spinzone

Post by _evolving »

Mike Reed wrote:The book isn't entirely bad, though. What I liked most was his section that debunks the popular Mormon folk-doctrine that Jesus suffered for sin in the Garden, and not on the cross.


Mike -- could you expand on this a little bit ?? one quick search on LDS.org on the garden of Gethsemane finds 472 references to Christ suffering in the garden, for our sins ??
_Mike Reed
_Emeritus
Posts: 983
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 7:28 pm

Re: Spinzone

Post by _Mike Reed »

evolving wrote:
Mike Reed wrote:The book isn't entirely bad, though. What I liked most was his section that debunks the popular Mormon folk-doctrine that Jesus suffered for sin in the Garden, and not on the cross.


Mike -- could you expand on this a little bit ?? one quick search on LDS.org on the garden of Gethsemane finds 472 references to him suffering in the garden for our sins ??


Sure. :) Official LDS doctrine is that Jesus suffered for sin in both locations. He suffered for sin on the cross and in the garden.

The Mormon folk-doctrine (still commonly taught by missionaries today, using their fancy little cut-outs) is that Jesus bridged the spiritual-death-gap in the Garden, and the physical-death-gap on the Cross.

This compartmentalized thinking (that implies that Jesus did not suffer for sin on the Cross) is false doctrine.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

I'm halfway through the book, and he touches on some great issues, like the idea that prophets are infallible. I've enjoyed it so far. I always enjoy Millets work tohugh.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
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