I'm a dogmatic "a-demonist".

[_Mercury]

Daemons are responsible for sending email among other things. They may just be software daemons and they may be created by humans, but I swear they possess computers running *nix.

[_antishock8]

[humor] I don't believe in demons or demonic possession. I am really dogmatic about it. I demand evidence of a definite kind or all bets are off. I also think that the world would be better off if no one believed in such.
I hope this dogmatism doesn't lead me to become the next Pol Pot or Stalin. [/end humor]

This is exactly the simply analogy that most effectively wins an argument. Allowing a conversation to be wrangled away from you and thrust into nuance only serves the apologist. Enless niggling over points obscures the topic, and eventually everyone forgets it. That's no good.

Kudos kudos...

[_Ren]

Mon,

Even beyond just the medical problems with not treating people... seems that someone that felt that actions are done because someone is possessed can result in what? I could foresee all sorts of complications with this mindset. It's bad enough that we have humans that look upon others as being less than human -- add onto that the thought that there are actually EVIL supernatural forces at play in the world... Ack! This one freaks me out! I think we need to get people as grounded as possible and recognize that humans are responsible for human behavior -- not some outside force that is twisting us about like pieces in a chess game. The entire proposition that we're all pawns in some game for supernatural entities (and this is what this belief IS!) creeps the hell out of me.

Can I take this to mean that you are less bothered about the notion of / belief in 'good' supernatural forces / entities, but are more concerned about the notion of 'bad' ones? I'm trying to match the above up with other threads...

Or is it perhaps the idea of 'possession' that is the 'creepy' aspect to it? If a person were to think they are being influenced / driven / 'possessed' by a 'good' spirit - that's inherently 'better'?
Is there a significant difference between believing to be / have been 'possessed' by a demon, and saying "a 'good' angel with a flaming sword made me do it..."?

...how about visiting an internet board and routinely declaring to directly 'speak to God' on a regular basis? Is that 'creepy'?

I just see this as a belief that we could really do without as a society and world.

Oh - I definitely believe that too.
I also think all supernatural belief - of any kind - can certainly be 'done without'...


Tarski,

It may be appropriate to bring criminal charges under certain conditions.

1. Forced exorcism.
2. Withholding of needed medical attention.
3. Harm done to the recipient during the process.
etc.

I completely agree with all 3 scenarios. I think the state has every right to 'intervene' in all 3 situations.

I would discourage belief in it.

So do I - if you mean declaring it to be (fairly obviously - in my opinion) untrue. I do also.

If you mean declaring such belief to be - quite obviously - often dangerous (specifically, certain forms or 'strengths' of such belief), then of course I also strongly believe that too.

But if you mean I need to declare it always 'harmful' or 'dangerous' to be effectively and 'properly' discouraging it then, well...
...If I truly believe differently - should I lie in the interest of doing the 'right thing'...? Or perhaps it's not a matter of lying, but more a matter of me 'seeing the light', along with the believers in demons?

...and if I were to potentially 'overstate the case', will that help or hinder the 'cause'? Will it help people take me seriously on the matter I'm speaking about?

Remember, Dawkins, Dennett et al are not proposing to ban religion.

For the most part, I fully agree. Although I think Dawkins has skirted the edges of the idea with this notion of treating all labeling of children with a 'religion' as 'child abuse'. On the one hand, I fully see the underlying point, and I do see the concern. But (as usual) I don't have much of an issue with the idea itself, but with (what I believe to be) the over-reaction based on it.

In my opinion, scientists are often not the best diplomats. Those who don't understand the importance of diplomacy - and why is isn't just a 'game for mugs' but in fact is essential to getting many things DONE - aren't actually fully aware of how the world works on a regular basis (in my opinion).
Although saying that, 'good' diplomacy is in the eye of the beholder I suppose.

Kenneth Miller has some stuff to say about this kind of issue at the end of the 'Intelligent Design' video you linked to earlier...

They are just trying to get as many people in society as possible convinced of the falsehood and dangers of religious belief. It's not a legal campaign.

Again, mostly agree. But again I'd refer to Dawkins attempting to link to 'child abuse' on a 'legal level' as an exception to this general trend.
It's also not just Dawkins (or similar peeps) that has anything to do with this... Dawkins is not speaking in a vacuum. I think Dawkins is far more able to separate his 'revulsion' for certain concepts from what 'needs to be done' - than others are.

[_Moniker]

Mon,

Even beyond just the medical problems with not treating people... seems that someone that felt that actions are done because someone is possessed can result in what? I could foresee all sorts of complications with this mindset. It's bad enough that we have humans that look upon others as being less than human -- add onto that the thought that there are actually EVIL supernatural forces at play in the world... Ack! This one freaks me out! I think we need to get people as grounded as possible and recognize that humans are responsible for human behavior -- not some outside force that is twisting us about like pieces in a chess game. The entire proposition that we're all pawns in some game for supernatural entities (and this is what this belief IS!) creeps the hell out of me.

Can I take this to mean that you are less bothered about the notion of / belief in 'good' supernatural forces / entities, but are more concerned about the notion of 'bad' ones? I'm trying to match the above up with other threads...

Are you trying to make me consistent? Please don't do that!!! My mind might explode....

I think believing that there are SUPERNATURAL entities IN people is where I draw the line! The game I mentioned wasn't so much that there might be outside forces at work (you know I don't believe that!), yet that there are good and bad entities IN people. I watched a show the other day where a woman thought her house was haunted. She was a NUT! I mean BIG TIME NUT! Sorry -- that's not very nice.. but she was! So, she was suffocated one night and thought it was the spirit, then one day her husband comes home and hacks his way through the front door with an axe and is taken away by police. Sooo... what happened? Her husband was POSSESSED by a demon in the house (her priest agreed with her!!!!!!) and it was actually he/demon that attempted to suffocate her in her sleep and the demon made her husband hack down the door. Hmm...... .... ....

The thinking that oogie boogies are about is one thing -- even talking to said oogie boogies doesn't bother me so much. YET, thinking the oogie boogies are IN people is just where I draw the line!

[_Ren]

The thinking that oogie boogies are about is one thing -- even talking to said oogie boogies doesn't bother me so much. YET, thinking the oogie boogies are IN people is just where I draw the line!

How about the notion of the Holy Ghost - to some degree - dwelling 'inside' of those who feel it? The Holy Ghost is a spirit, and 'directs' those who are 'inspired' by it.
...in a way it is considered 'communication' - but it is also considered to 'dwell inside you' to some degree at the same time. It's a little more 'intimate' then just plain communication.

I suppose a distinction is that while the Holy Ghost is thought to prompt you, it doesn't go taking over your agency - your choice. Like a demon will tend to...
The Holy Ghost is only able to 'direct' if the person 'lets it'.


But anyway - I see where you are going... No worries - you are being consistent as far as I can see :)
...and I think this is where most people draw the line too. Even those that believe that such beings really are there, and DO have the power to possess...!
I'll use my mum as an example. She believes in the Mormon teaching that a third of the host of heaven were cast down, and that they are 'somewhere around' here. Usually, the most they can do is tempt and taunt us in a 'spiritual' manner - they don't usually get to control us. But she does believe it is possible.
After all, she literally believes in what is stated in the New Testament, where Jesus is described as 'casting out demons'. She believes it is possible for 'demons' to possess a human body.

But DO they? Now? She doesn't believe that - on a practical level. Certainly not in her personal experience. And it should be appreciated that she has worked as a psychiatric nurse all her life. She has dealt with 'crazy' people constantly for nearly 40 years non-stop. (And that's not even to mention her family...!!)
She does not believe that any of the people she has cared for or looked after are 'possessed' - in any way. The last thing she would prescribe would be a 'priesthood blessing' (certainly if they didn't believe in it) or the LDS equivalent of an exorcism (I know there is considered to be the capacity to 'rebuke' demons processing a person using the power of the priesthood...).
She knows perfectly well that the best way to treat the people placed in her care is modern medicine, modern therapies / procedures and a concern for their well-being.

If someone were to declare that any percentage of the people on her ward were 'possessed', she'd dismiss that pretty much as quickly as any of us would - in reality. In fact, she may be even quicker about it, because she wouldn't want her 'type' of belief mixed up with theirs...

In her thinking, these times are not New Testament times. Both God and Satan are not (with little statistical significance at least) directly demonstrating their power anymore. While Satan is powerful, his 'real' power has always been in temptation. In stroking the hearts of people.
This is the 'calm before the storm'. The lull where many are fooled into thinking that neither God nor Satan - or their 'entourages' - are really there at all.

Everyone will know differently when the 'end times' come of course...!

[_Moniker]

The thinking that oogie boogies are about is one thing -- even talking to said oogie boogies doesn't bother me so much. YET, thinking the oogie boogies are IN people is just where I draw the line!

How about the notion of the Holy Ghost - to some degree - dwelling 'inside' of those who feel it? The Holy Ghost is a spirit, and 'directs' those who are 'inspired' by it.
...in a way it is considered 'communication' - but it is also considered to 'dwell inside you' to some degree at the same time. It's a little more 'intimate' then just plain communication.

I wasn't aware of this....

I suppose a distinction is that while the Holy Ghost is thought to prompt you, it doesn't go taking over your agency - your choice. Like a demon will tend to...
The Holy Ghost is only able to 'direct' if the person 'lets it'.

I understood that the HG was able to direct people if they asked for guidance and they could take or leave that guidance. Seeking an emotional "yes" or "no" is not wise, imho -- yet, it is a far cry from thinking there's a demon taking over free will.

But anyway - I see where you are going, and I think this is where most people draw the line too. Even those that believe that such beings really are there, and DO have the power to possess...!
I'll use my mum as an example. She believes in the Mormon teaching that a third of the host of heaven were cast down, and that they are 'somewhere around' here. Usually, the most they can do is tempt and taunt us in a 'spiritual' manner - they don't usually get to control us. But she does believe it is possible.
After all, she literally believes in what is stated in the New Testament, where Jesus is described as 'casting out demons'. She believes it is possible for 'demons' to possess a human body.

Right, I knew that was in the New Testament... I forget about that one at times. Just when I'm feeling right with the New Testament and Jesus I remember there's more to it... Sheesh.

But DO they? Now? She doesn't believe that - on a practical level. Certainly not in her personal experience. And it should be appreciated that she has worked as a psychiatric nurse all her life. She has dealt with 'crazy' people constantly for nearly 40 years non-stop. (And that's not even to mention her family...!!)
She does not believe that any of the people she has cared for or looked after are 'possessed' - in any way. The last thing she would prescribe would be a 'priesthood blessing' (certainly if they didn't believe in it) or the LDS equivalent of an exorcism (I know there is considered to be the capacity to 'rebuke' demons processing a person using the power of the priesthood...).
She knows perfectly well that the best way to treat the people placed in her care is modern medicine, modern therapies / procedures and a concern for their well-being.

Well, I don't understand this to be honest. I know lots of people do this - they take bits and think they're possible but actually don't believe in them. I don't quite understand how they do it -- but if she can separate her religious beliefs from reality I think there's no harm there.

If someone were to declare that any percentage of the people on her ward were 'possessed', she'd dismiss that pretty much as quickly as any of us would - in reality. In fact, she may be even quicker about it, because she wouldn't want her 'type' of belief mixed up with theirs...

In her thinking, these times are not New Testament times. Both God and Satan are not (with little statistical significance at least) directly demonstrating their power anymore. While Satan is powerful, his 'real' power has always been in temptation. In stroking the hearts of people.
This is the 'calm before the storm'. The lull where many are fooled into thinking that neither God or Satan are not really there at all.

Everyone will know differently when the 'end times' come of course...!

Hmm.... I get sort of surprised when I hear people talking about evil and minions on the boards. The first few times Satan comments were directed to me it was equivalent to someone saying I was an egg in the easter bunnies basket, or maybe one of Santa's elves? Yet, after I recognized they TRULY thought this I realized just exactly how they viewed me. I don't know the answers, Ren. I don't have any family that really believes in the Old Testament or New Testament and have never truly had to deal with that mindset. It could very well be that I have some reactions to things because they are startling to me since I don't know many that hold these beliefs. Yet, most of the time (I think you know this) I recognize that people just were indoctrinated with these religious beliefs and they seem benign.

I'm just starting to think about a lot of these things... and wasn't raised fundamentalist or really about any sort of organized religion in any sort of consistent fashion and just have knee jerks at times. Other times I zone out the things that seem kooky to me.

[_Ren]

Mon,
I made an edit to my last post, but a bit too late:

But anyway - I see where you are going... No worries - you are being consistent as far as I can see :)

I don't see this about you being inconsistent. In all fairness, this is more about religious people being inconsistent!
...but we humans are inconsistent about all kinds of things, for all kinds of reasons...

I understood that the HG was able to direct people if they asked for guidance and they could take or leave that guidance. Seeking an emotional "yes" or "no" is not wise, imho -- yet, it is a far cry from thinking there's a demon taking over free will.

Yeap - for sure. No arguments there.

Hmm.... I get sort of surprised when I hear people talking about evil and minions on the boards. The first few times Satan comments were directed to me it was equivalent to someone saying I was an egg in the easter bunnies basket, or maybe one of Santa's elves? Yet, after I recognized they TRULY thought this I realized just exactly how they viewed me.

Yeah, I suppose being told you are on 'Satan's side' is a little less shocking when you've heard about Satan's 'temptations' and 'half-truths' most of your life...
It's still a ridiculous thing to say of course (for all kinds of reasons), and many people who might beleive it is a possibility wouldn't be rude enough to just up and say it. But yeah - it's less shocking for me probably.
I fully expect for the implication of having been 'led away by Satan' to often be there when I talk to Mormons...

Maybe that I have that expectation is a problem in and of itself.

I don't know the answers, Ren. I don't have any family that really believes in the Old Testament or New Testament and have never truly had to deal with that mindset. It could very well be that I have some reactions to things because they are startling to me since I don't know many that hold these beliefs. Yet, most of the time (I think you know this) I recognize that people just were indoctrinated with these religious beliefs and they seem benign.

I guess the distinction to be made here is: 'Are the beliefs benign because of what the beliefs literally are? Or is it that the 'nature' of the belief as expressed is appropriately 'muted'?
I was raised in a (relatively) fundamentalist religion. But I don't feel I was raised very 'fundamentally' regardless. And I'm very thankful for that.

Conversely, I could have been raised in a less inherently 'fundamental' religion, but raised in a more fundamental manner...