Jason Bourne wrote:RockHeaded wrote:First I do not belong to the RLDS church. I would also like to say that there is no one person that dictates what I believe, I would hope that everyone here believes the way they do because they've studied and prayed for guidence. I was always taught to follow no man but follow God, so because there are many people that believe this or that it makes no difference to me. That is their beliefs and that is fine for them.
The overwhelming evidence which has been brought forth against Joseph Smith isn't so much when one weighs all the evidence. At least that is the way I see it? For instance, in a court of law who is the judge going to believe; the man who continues to tell you the same story or the man who continually contradicts himself? I was told quite a few years ago that DNA would prove Joseph Smith was a polygamist and that BYU was working on this. It was supposed to be pretty easy, and I was asked if I would accept that Joseph was a polygamist after it was proven. I said I would BUT stated that they would never find this DNA evidence because he wasn't a polygamist. Well, was a right? They haven't found anyone that is a polygamist decendant yet, they never will. How can I be so sure? I've read most of this overwhelming evidence the fact is most of it was written after the fact. Joseph Smith was dead how many years before the polygamy doctrine was published? There are a lot of things that were published long after his death attributed to him. I would think a fair minded person would give him the benefit of the doubt, it seems not though.
If a man were honest, and was attributing a teaching to another man, why would he decide to change the other man's journal to substantiate this teaching? Wouldn't we figure this teaching already in this journal? That makes no sense to me. It should (maybe not?) bring up a red flag on this subject, shouldn't it? Why did the majority of the people that followed Brigham Young to Utah believe that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist? It seems the only ones that made the polygamy claims were those surrounding Brigham Young. Didn't Brigham Young say that everyone knew Joseph was a polygamist (could be wrong on that quote but I seem to recall reading it)? If that were the case why didn't these people believe him?
IMHO it's all common sense. If you read section 132, starting with when Young claimed Joseph recieved it, you find contradictions. That is of course if you know the history. If Joseph Smith wrote that, and wrote everything else before that then for some reason he had a memory laps. The reason I say this is 132 doesn't make sense, the rest of them do.
My apologies. I thought you were RLDS. Care to share what flavor LDS you are?
Anyway, I am sorry but the evidence is over whelming that Smith was a polygamist. Some of his closest associates that dissaffected from him did so because of this. William Law and Sidney Rigdon, and others. William Marks knew Smith practiced it and stated that Smith was about to give it up. I guess we will have to disagree on this one. I wish you were right on this but you are not.
I do not belong to any church. You can call me a restorationist if you'd like as they believe pretty much the same as I do. I've not been to a restorationist church in years.
Not really over whelming. I am sure that you did read a quote from William Marks, and it probably sounded as though Smith was a polygamist but was about to give it up. I've seen the same quote. Here read it again, I'm not sure if you read the whole quote? You'll notice he is talking about 'those, or them, and they.' When including himself he says 'we'.
A few days after this occurrence, I met with Brother Joseph. He said that he wanted to converse with me on the affairs of the CHurch, and we retired by ourselves. I will give his words verbatim, for they are indelibly stamped upon my mind. He said he had desired for a long time to have a talk with me on the subject of polygamy. He said it eventuall would prove the overthrow of the Church, and we should soon be obliged to leave the United States, unless it could be speedily put down. He was satisfied that it was a cursed doctrine, and that there must be every exertion made to put it down. He said that he would go before the congregation and proclaim against it, and I must go into the High Council, and he would prefer charges against those in transgression, and I must sever them from the Church, unless they made ample satisfaction. There was much more said, but this was the substance. The mob commenced to gather about Carthage in a few days after, therefore there was nothing done concerning it. {Harold, no.1, vol.1, pg 25. also Joseph Smith: Who Was He by Willard J. Smith page 57-58}
Joseph said 'they' if he were involved in polygamy it would have been 'we'. He had been trying to irradicate polygamy from the Church but was martyred before he could do so. I will deal with William Law and Sidney Rigdon later.
Hi RH, you're correct, 132 doesn't make sense. As for the other 135, some make more sense than others. I suppose most things written by anyone are on a scale, best-to-worse, generally speaking. Of course we do have many "one-hit-wonders"...
As to 132, as it is, IF I'm following you correctly, you are suggesting it is a product of BY to justify his penchant to make babies?? So while WJ appears to be following Joseph Smith (in his own mind?) he is, as you see it, following BY, the SL, Brigamites, not the RLDS who stayed with Emma??
None the less we do have FLDS who, disinherited or not, are connected by their herritage, the Book of Mormon and the D&C particularly, 132.
Have I connected your dots--which seem OK by me--with some degree of accuracy? (I like yer independent thinking :-) Warm regards, Roger
That is correct, but the Book of Mormon does not teach polygamy. It teaches against it. It is pretty clear in Jacob. The FLDS is a decendant of what Brigham Young started. IMHO it's obvious, how many children did Joseph Smith have with these woman they claim he married? NONE, DNA has basically proven that. I have no idea how many Brigham Young had but that is what Young claim 132 was all about, raising riteous seed. Brigham Young knew that if he were to bring the polygamy doctrine out the people wouldn't follow him, he knew that if he put Joseph Smith's name on it they would.
Has anyone here seen "September Dawn"? If so remember in the movie how they kept putting things on Joseph Smith? That is what they did. That movie was pretty accurate as to how things were under Brigham.
RockHeaded
