NY Times op-ed; I am sure it was discussed, where?

[_Phaedrus Ut]

Polygamy Then and Now- Response by Marlin K. Jensen

It's interesting in reading Jensen's response to the NY times editorial. He claims that Egan is in error by comparing FLDS polygamy to 19th Century LDS polygamy but he fails to make any distinctions. He makes arguments why it's ok for Joseph to be banging 14 year old girls (it was sometimes ok). Why 19th century Mormon women weren't timid (they weren't because he says so). And how women weren't manipulated or coerced into marriage with this gem of a quote.

On the contrary, decisions related to marriage were settled by consideration of the feelings of all interested parties. Furthermore, the consent of individual women was always honored in any marriage proposal.

Anyone who spent much time researching this subject can quickly look to the relationship between Joseph and Emma and how considerate he was with her feelings, how he didn't coerce any girls into marriage, and how he didn't abuse his status as prophet to get brides(single or not). There were no angels with flaming swords and Emma wasn't threatened with destruction.

Jensen's response is a good example why the church shouldn't do their own apologetics. They suck worse than the crackpots at FAIR and FARMS. At least leaving it up to those hacks they weren't directly tied to the bad double talk. I suggest going back to posting links to Jeff Lindsay's blog.


Phaedrus

[_Sethbag]

On the other hand, what was Marlin Jensen supposed to do? Throw up his hands with a sigh and say "damnit! you got us nailed, didn't you!"

The church is between a rock and a hard place on this one. The fact that some LDS polygamous relationships worked according to that description by Marlin Jensen completely ignores that Joseph Smith, the Rock Star of the LDS church, its founding prophet, and the man whose portrait hangs on many thousands of LDS faithfuls' walls, practiced polygamy in dishonest, deceitful, and coercive and manipulative ways, and Jensen knows this. Or he should know it. And it's not some random LDS polygamous marrage from 1875 in Utah that serves as the pattern for the practice. It's what Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and Heber C. Kimball and others did, who started it all off.

Joseph started it all of very, very badly. So much so that the LDS mantra ought to be "do as we say, not as Joseph Smith did".

Due to no fault of any LDS currently living, all this crap is coming home to roost. It's not Monson's fault. It's not Packer's fault. It's not my fault, or Daniel Peterson's fault, or anyone else's fault who is alive today. It's Joseph Smith's fault. But there it is. Joseph Smith was a deceiving, manipulative con artist. This is what he did, and this is why it's coming back on the LDS church today. It's founded on deceit, manmade wishful thinking, self-deception, and has as its foundation the fraud of Joseph Smith.

[_Boaz & Lidia]

It would have been just another Christian faith had not Smith let his libido lead him into trouble. Before he died at the hands of a mob, he married at least 33 women and girls; the youngest was 14, and was told she had to become Smith’s bedmate or risk eternal damnation.

The only reply from Marlin was

Much of the argument Egan makes for similarities between FLDS polygamy and early Mormon marriage practices relates to the claim of "sexual manipulation" of children as evidenced by the age of marriage.

In fact, men and women often married at a much younger age in the 19th century than we find acceptable today. Historian Kathryn Daynes, who has studied the subject in depth, says that although the female average age at marriage in the United States during the nineteenth century was twenty or older, a girl marrying at age 15 was not uncommon and certainly was not considered abused.

The common-law marriage age for women was 12. Historically, outside of northwestern Europe, women at 14 to 16 were assumed to be ready for marriage.

Is this the masked public response to Smith coercing a 14 year old into sex?

"Yeah Smith did pop the cherries of a pre pubescent 14 year old GIRL, but back then it was very common..."

Note to Marlin..

There is a big problem. You all claim God speaks directly to past and present senior LDS leadership.

Has God changed his mind in as little as 150 years concerning the age of consent? For girls? Has Man been allowed to change how God feels?

The more time marches on the more wrong the early LDS church was and the deeper their PR spokesmen put their foot into their pie holes.

[_Blixa]

Egan's blog post was great. He's one of the few consistently good writers at the Times.

[_truth dancer]

Timothy Egan claims that the way polygamy is practiced today by members of the FLDS sect in Eldorado, Texas is the same as it was practiced by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) in the 19th century. In fact, a closer look at history contradicts his simple reductive characterizations of “Mormon polygamy.”

Like telling us this makes it so. :-(

Nineteenth-century Mormon women were not timid, subservient, and backward, as the image of FLDS women portrayed in recent days in the media has shown. Rather, women in both plural and monogamous marriages were politically active and participated in territorial elections, taught school and were active in publishing and literary activities.

FLDS women see themselves as strong, capable, and true followers of Christ and Joseph Smith, just like early LDS believers. They do not see themselves as manipulated, coerced, or brainwashed at all.

In addition, Mormon marriage then was not controlled by the arbitrary authority of one individual, and the consent of individual women was always honored in any marriage proposal. Both men and women were free to refuse offers of marriage they found unacceptable.

The FLDS would claim the exact same thing. They see themselves as choosing to follow a leader and obey God, same as LDS believers.

Marriage in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is sacred and ordained of God.

Same claim from the FLDS.

The family is the basic social unit in this life and in the next.

Same.

The social, emotional, and spiritual health of all family members was then and is today the primary concern of every Latter-day Saint mother and father.

Same claim.

Mr. Egan’s cavalier comparison of FLDS polygamous practices with those of 19th century Latter-day Saints is historically unsupported and simply wrong.

Again, saying so doesn't make it true.

By implication, he also unfairly impugns the integrity of all Latter-day Saint marriages and families, the very institutions they hold most dear.

I don't follow... why does he say this?

The truth is, the LDS church still practices polygamy, albeit in a slightly limited form. Many men can and are sealed to multiple women who are ALIVE and well. The LDS church BELIEVES in polygamy, holds it as a divine institution, believes God is a polygamist, and embraces the concept.

To pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

~dancer~

[_Dr. Shades]

In addition, Mormon marriage then was not controlled by the arbitrary authority of one individual, and the consent of individual women was always honored in any marriage proposal. Both men and women were free to refuse offers of marriage they found unacceptable.

The latter two statements are direct lies. If he believes them, then he obviously hasn't undertaken even the most cursory survey of Mormon history.

In fact, where are Juliann and her cohorts demanding that FLDS women be allowed to speak for themselves?

LOL!

On the other hand, what was Marlin Jensen supposed to do? Throw up his hands with a sigh and say "damnit! you got us nailed, didn't you!"

That's a good point. Telling the truth would be completely devastating to LDS claims, so he didn't have much of a choice but to utter what he did.