Pride goeth... Pov. 16:18

[_Roger Morrison]

...before destruction..." My question is about "goeth". Is it better understood, in this sense, as 'cometh'? Is the suggestion that "when one falls it is because their pride is 'gone'." Or, do they experience "destruction" because they have too much pride?

What have You been taught to believe? Thoughts? Warm regards (to Jersey Girl especially :-) Roger

[_Roger Morrison]

To answer my own question :-) I think without "pride" we are less a person of honour and integrity than when we have "pride" in our character and reputation to be a responsible, responsive person committed to noble betterment of self, family and society.

There seems little "pride" evidenced in crack-houses and addicts to their drug habits...

My point being, in the generalized Judeo-Christian sermons on "pride", as i understood them, "pride" was to be avoided as one of the 7 deadlies that takes folks down to Hell. Such teaching was to discourage questioning, and disobedience of Authority. To imagine oneself on the same level as an edict-maker, of any stripe, was an arrogant display of "pride".... Great subservience maker for centuries.

Another bible-bit to eschew as serious biblical study uncovers more of its dark side, and negative social effects upon humanity, past and present. Let's make--by revelation (read revealing;-)--the future fare better... Warm regards, Roger

[_truth dancer]

Hi Roger,

Well you have given me something to ponder! :-) (thanks)! I'm still swirling around several thoughts in my brain.

I find pride a difficult topic, because on the one hand, there is something beautiful about feeling the wonder and joy of accomplishment, and yet, there is certainly harm in feeling better/more righteous than others.

And I have met those who take pride in their humility... LOL!

For me, I think the best way to manage is to remain teachable, open, and meek, while listening to ones heart for guidance.

Working on it... (smile)

~dancer~

[_Inconceivable]

..I find pride a difficult topic, because on the one hand, there is something beautiful about feeling the wonder and joy of accomplishment, and yet, there is certainly harm in feeling better/more righteous than others.

And I have met those who take pride in their humility... LOL!

For me, I think the best way to manage is to remain teachable, open, and meek, while listening to ones heart for guidance...

~dancer~

Well, what is the difference between taking pride in something or having a "proud look"? At least one of them the Lord hates, I suppose.

I don't use this word to describe my emotion or frame of mind.

I resolved this issue within myself a number of years ago (it's best described in these examples):

Countenancing humility pleases me - whether it's my own or that of others.

It satisfies me to see a job well done - any job, not just my own.

I am pleased with my children's intent to do things that can potentially make the world a better place. Whether they be accomplished or merely strived for. Becoming an Eagle scout, serving in the military, marrying for the right reasons, raising respectful children..

To me, pride is the reflection of whatever it is on the surface of what we claim as our accomplishment or possession (that we assume refracts off of us). It is a shallower badge of honor than to step back and let the value of the deed, character stand on it's own merits.

[_huckelberry]

Roger I cannot think of any reason to think the pride spoken of as going before a fall is that sense of self respect which desires responsibilty and accomplishment.

I think the pride meant is closer to these words (you reminded me with your addict reference)

Now when I stick
that spike,
into my arm.
It makes me feel
just like Jesus son.
Its my life
its my wife
Heroin

Its like a young man I knew in the church back in 1967. He really was smarter than most other individuals. He was also betterlooking than many. He found young he could charm many women. He was incontroll where ordinary people loose it. He start chipping . He became a junkie. I do not know what became of him. perhaps he was one of the few who find there way back out of that ditch which their pride found.
..............
I realized I should reference the quote. It is from the Velvet Underground alblum, song, heroin.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi TD, i think you exemplify the religiously created cultural confusion with the word "pride". On one hand we feel proud/pride on many occassions, well justified i hasten to add. OTOH, lurking in the dark--religion created--wrikles of our brain, there tinkles, caution. Could arrogance & narcicism be more appropriately filtered from our attitudes?? I'm with ya on that self-expressed-humility. LOL!

Incon, i think we're on the same page. BUT, "...one of them the Lord hates, I suppose," seems a carry-over from religious mythology that indoctrinated humanity in the necessity of never doing anything that, "...the Lord hates..." IMSCO, (not in my humble opinion, ;-)

Huck, i think you are correct in using "self respect" as you did. Thanks for the lyrics. Too real for so many who suffer pains i cannot begin to imagine.

When i checked out the concordance on "pride", all/most of the warnings could also substitute "self respect" to effect the same attitude of denagrating and defaming those who were being counselled to see themselves as subordinates to their leaders. I think it needful to appreciate those times as times when brute force ruled, and kept order by intimidation. Not a time of Universal-humanhood. "...force and intimidation..." Still effective with some... "Universal-humanhood" is a future's will-be in the hands of our more enlightened progeny. IMSCO :-) Warm regards, Roger

[_huckelberry]

Hi Roger, I think you are looking at an important question. You can see that authoritarian leaders can employ an attack on prinde of followerss as a method of making them unable to question authority. You are right that there are harsh circumstances which require unquestioning obedience. Soldiers going into battle must engage an obedience completely inappropriate for other times. Yet there are self obsessed leaders who ask that sort of obdedience in daily life.

I am tempted to simplify to saying: such leaders are evil, avoid them.

I mean they really are evil.

Now perhaps we find ourselves at times dealing with authorities not that extreme but more caught on having their power than is healthy. We need to recogize and resist. But how is a good question. How to recognize the line is a good question.

A tricky thing is that people growing up are dependent upon learning from authority. Good teachers supply authority while encouraging thought learning and questions as essential to the purpose. Such authorities teach to benefit the person learning. The overly authoritative does not care about the health of the student, just his own power and position.

I was thinking of the Biblical instructions as examples for making distinguishment. I looked in a concordance and did not find what apparently you found. Instead I found discussion of pride as being something that made people uncaring irresponsible dishonest and generally criminal. Obviously that is not just trying to learn on ones own. Obviously it is not being proud of doing a good job. It is pride of a different order. I might add that my picture of humanity sees this negative pride as actually more commont than the positive pride. However I hope not to sound as if I do not see the positive all around me. I do.

Biblical picturews of pride that I found: Ps 10:2 In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor.Let them be caught in the schemes which they have devised. For the wicked boasts of the desires of his heart and the man greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord.

Reading through the proverbs chapter we started with I found a lot of themes which to my ears are valuable and lovely even if simple. Wisdom is a fountain of life. Pleasant words are like a honeycomb sweetness to soul and health.(I thought I read a number of words pointing to the value of shared counsel instead of blind authority)

A workers appetite works for him, his mouth urges him on. A worthless man plots evil and his speech is like a scorching fire.

there was a phrase which sounded to my ears just like the courage destruction by authoirity which you state you find and are disturbed by.

Pr 16:25
There is a way which seems right to a man buts end is the way to death.

My problem with this phrase is I have heard it used as question discussion and learning terminator.On message board I have seen a few times extremists take a sort of pride in the ugliness of their argument and then bring out this quote. You can't trust your own judgement. Polygamy is great you just do not understand etc. Or bablies are all going to hell, to bad you do not like that, your ways are wrong. I have seen such fanatics on different sides.

I think they destroy the text, or put such a smell on it that it is hard to read. I do not think it means theses things at all. I feel sure it is a variation on the theme running through the chapter. People use pride to excuse their own criminal corruptions.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Huck, thanks for your thoughtful response, into which i'll comment in bold...

Hi Roger, I think you are looking at an important question. You can see that authoritarian leaders can employ an attack on prinde of followerss as a method of making them unable to question authority. You are right that there are harsh circumstances which require unquestioning obedience. Soldiers going into battle must engage an obedience completely inappropriate for other times. Yet there are self obsessed leaders who ask that sort of obdedience in daily life. Agree. In that context i think authoritarian-parents can, and do, play a most damaging influence in their nurturing role...

I am tempted to simplify to saying: such leaders are evil, avoid them.

I mean they really are evil. True, and unfortunately not always avoidable i.e. parents, teachers, sport coaches, etc.

Now perhaps we find ourselves at times dealing with authorities not that extreme but more caught on having their power than is healthy. We need to recogize and resist. But how is a good question. How to recognize the line is a good question. A verrry good question. The "how" is often beyond the ability of children and/or the ability of those conditioned by authoritarians in their homes-of-chance... That is why so many have little, or no, healthy-resistance to domination...

A tricky thing is that people growing up are dependent upon learning from authority. Good teachers supply authority while encouraging thought learning and questions as essential to the purpose. Such authorities teach to benefit the person learning. The overly authoritative does not care about the health of the student, just his own power and position. Too true. In my day it was, "Sit-up, shut-up & face-the-front!" Yet, i well remember some very good, validating teachers. As i do some who were destructive monsters to many who were called "stupid, and worthless!"

I was thinking of the Biblical instructions as examples for making distinguishment. I looked in a concordance and did not find what apparently you found. Instead I found discussion of pride as being something that made people uncaring irresponsible dishonest and generally criminal.
While "pride" might have been used to describe those negatives at the time, I think today we would use different terminology i.e. indifference, narcissim, psychopathic, neurotic, psychotic... Obviously that is not just trying to learn on ones own. Obviously it is not being proud of doing a good job. It is pride of a different order. I might add that my picture of humanity sees this negative pride as actually more commont than the positive pride. However I hope not to sound as if I do not see the positive all around me. I do. You obviously have "...hearing ears & seeing eyes..." :-) It is sometimes difficult to appreciate "the positives" as there seems to be more folks raving about how bad the world is than pointing out the evolving good and advantages in our world. I think this is in most part due to ignorance fostered by ignorance and believed by unthinking and irresponsible folks who have been deprived of good-teaching and good-learning experiences. To continue my rant:-) many churches, ESPECIALLY LDSism are responsible for such negative, destructive promolgations...

Biblical picturews of pride that I found: Ps 10:2 In arrogance the wicked hotly pursue the poor.Let them be caught in the schemes which they have devised. For the wicked boasts of the desires of his heart and the man greedy for gain curses and renounces the Lord. A good description of indifferent exploitation carried on by corporations born for only one purpose: to make money, to make folks rich. Many of whom carry Bibles, and BoMs to church every Sunday--praising the Lord... :-O

Reading through the proverbs chapter we started with I found a lot of themes which to my ears are valuable and lovely even if simple. Wisdom is a fountain of life. Pleasant words are like a honeycomb sweetness to soul and health.(I thought I read a number of words pointing to the value of shared counsel instead of blind authority) Yes, there is much wisdom, and comfort to be found in the Bible. All good doesn't need to go out by becoming aware and concious of the not-so-good, which is best not believed.

A workers appetite works for him, his mouth urges him on. A worthless man plots evil and his speech is like a scorching fire.

there was a phrase which sounded to my ears just like the courage destruction by authoirity which you state you find and are disturbed by.

Pr 16:25
There is a way which seems right to a man buts end is the way to death.

My problem with this phrase is I have heard it used as question discussion and learning terminator.On message board I have seen a few times extremists take a sort of pride in the ugliness of their argument and then bring out this quote. You can't trust your own judgement. Polygamy is great you just do not understand etc. Or bablies are all going to hell, to bad you do not like that, your ways are wrong. I have seen such fanatics on different sides.

I think they destroy the text, or put such a smell on it that it is hard to read. I do not think it means theses things at all. I feel sure it is a variation on the theme running through the chapter. People use pride to excuse their own criminal corruptions.

I think the Bible must be understood for its many "revelations", not for its "Revelations". The book is not "God's" word. It is man's word to humanity. It is a historical, cultural, biographical, anthropological revelation/compilation of thoughts and actions of an ancient tribe's evolution through time, space and place.

As such it is most informative. To believe it is more than that, is to "be deceived by the cunning and craftiness of men." (Eph 4:14) Warm regards, Roger