Mad Viking wrote:My wife’s brother was killed in just this manner. At the time I was struck by the improbability of this actually happening. His car and the other car were the only two on that segment of country road for miles. The other driver fell asleep (chemically induced) and hit him head on. The amount of events that need to line up just right to result in my BIL’s death are staggering. Not only did this individual need to take the chemical, they needed to leave their house at the right time, accelerate through the yellow light, choose that route to town, etc… just so that they could cross the middle line, right at the exact time to result in a head on accident with my brother in law. It seamed like an astronomically improbable event.
As a side story here...
I was travelling home one December night through Park City to Provo Canyon. I was driving on a 2 lane road when a car passed me. I kid you not, the SECOND the car passed me, it swerved into my lane, jumped a snow-bank, took out a sign and crashed. We turned around and went to the car to find a drunk bitch passed out with beer cans and whiskey bottles all over. If I had taken a single second somewhere, I would not be here now.
by the way, I wish they would pass legislation that allows an officer to execute anyone who is DUI on the spot. I'll bet we'd sure see a drastic reduction of DUI's, yes? Funny how I can't get drunk and walk into a mall and start randomly firing a gun, and if I hit someone and kill them, I get the chair...but I can drive my car which is just as deadly and kill someone and get a slap on the wrist.
[/rant]
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
I can say right up front that there are some aspects and meaning to the word faith which I think are valuable and worth respect.
The word is sort of a mess. It has a variety of meanings not all of which I am able to see as valuable or worthy of respect. Some meanings I would view as refering to something closer to sin than virtue. If faith is just the power to believe stuff without evidence I do not think it is worth much. It is a source of chaos. It is a source of darkness fear and error.
I wonder if my distinction is merely the one which Truth Dancer points out. People respect faith which agrees with their own belief. I thought that was an interensting observation. It reflects a clear penchant in human reactions to others. I asked myself if that was what I felt. I think not, hope not.
Reading proposals above I found the most bizarre version of faith to my mind was the idea that it was a power holding the world (atoms) together. To my view an exceptionally repulsive bit of magic thought. The next to least attractive view was the Book of Mormon quote. I think normally the Book of Mormon presents somewhat garbled adolesent concepts of common traditional Christianity. the comments on faith certanily fall into that class to my mind.
But I would not say there was some special version of Christianity (well except the words of Jesus) which doesn't stumble about with a variety of ideas of what faith is some of which seem to me rather garbled.
Yet I am sure even in my LDS upbringing I was exposed to better ideas of what faith is than have been mentioned in this tread. Faith I respect is not so much a matter of believing stuff but being faithful to what is of real value. It is closer to courage in love than thinking some doctrine is better than some other. I feel that is the dimension of faith which Jesus repeatedly points to. (the person with faith is the good samaritan despite the deficiencies of his belief catalogue)
This kind of faith, courage and love, has the advantage of not commiting oneself to doctrines first. It can be open to learning. It opens a person to finding within themself invention and responsibilty. This sort of faith can discard errors because it recognizes things whose value takes precedent over beliefs. (our relationship to other people, our relationship to ourself)
I think there are serious aspects of Mormon thought which war against this faith. In some ways Mormon belief is unfaith. Yet this is not a pure thing. The best dimensions of faith which I am aware of finds some voice in Mormon community. I can see some of it in idividual Mormon believers (and unbelieivers as well)
Faith must have some strength if it can survive in any part being poisened by words like those which demand people accept polygamy as a test of faith. That is a demand naturally destructive of faith.
The word is sort of a mess. It has a variety of meanings not all of which I am able to see as valuable or worthy of respect.
If faith is just the power to believe stuff without evidence I do not think it is worth much. It is a source of chaos. It is a source of darkness fear and error.
I think normally the Book of Mormon presents somewhat garbled adolesent concepts of common traditional Christianity. the comments on faith certanily fall into that class to my mind.
Faith I respect is not so much a matter of believing stuff but being faithful to what is of real value.
This kind of faith, courage and love, has the advantage of not commiting oneself to doctrines first.
Good comments, Huckleberry.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
huckelberry wrote: Faith I respect is not so much a matter of believing stuff but being faithful to what is of real value. It is closer to courage in love than thinking some doctrine is better than some other. I feel that is the dimension of faith which Jesus repeatedly points to. (the person with faith is the good samaritan despite the deficiencies of his belief catalogue)
I agree with the thrust of this, but I wouldn't call it faith. In my lexicon, what you're describing is 'integrity.'
I don't actually equate 'faith' with 'being faithful,' just like I don't equate a 'response' with 'being responsible.'
As for the point of the thread, Merc nailed it. It's just a bogus invention used by organized religions to control people. Nothing more, nothing less.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
truth dancer wrote:If it were otherwise they would be equally pleased with faith in Zeus, Allah, Buddha, or any number of God beings, Deities, or even Goddesses heaven forbid. (wink)
I agree with you. . . WINKare goddesses! Thanks for kindly saying so.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"