The movie Fitna

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_dartagnan
_Emeritus
Posts: 2750
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Re: The movie Fitna

Post by _dartagnan »

Whether the Old Testament is true or not is irrelevant to the problem or the discussion Kevin.

Not if you keep invoking it as an example of Christians/Jews being just as "dangerous" as Muslims. It would actually have to matter if these events really took place.

My observation is there are many many believers in the Old Testament. They believe it is true, the word of God, and a literal history. Do you disagree with this?

Sure, but even the examples given from the Old Testament are not used today to commit atrocity.
Do you really think all believers in the Bible think it is just myth or fabrication or something?

No, but if you want to say Jews and Christians did this and that horrible thing, because it says so in the Bible, you are really being disingenuous.

It doesn't matter what you or I think about it. Many believers in the Old Testament, actually believe it.

Believe what? If the Old Testament were truly "dangerous" then you should be able to produce an example of its "danger" to our society today. Where are these clans of Jews rallying in the name of King David, as they attempt to kill all non-Jews in their vicinity? Can you even produce a single example in the past 2000 years?
The point is, the story is about God directing men to slaughter non-believers.

As directed by alleged prophets in that day. But Jews and Christians believe the next prophet will be the Messiah, and there is no hint or indication that he would command his followers to slaughter the masses.
Just as some believers in Islam also think it is God's will to kill infidels.

No, there is a distinction here. In Islam, it is lawful, even commanded, that all Muslims take up the sword against the non-Muslim. It is an open commandment in the Quran. The Old Testament never says to kill all non-Jews, nor does the New Testament say this about all non-Christians. Not even close.

The teaching is there. God loves his chosen group, the others must die.

What "teaching"? It isn't a "teaching" as you keep trying to misconstrue it. If it is truly "taught" like that, then where are the Jews employing this teaching?

I don't see how any believer in the Old Testament can complain about others who do exactly what is taught in their scripture, the only difference is their particular God.

That's because you are willfully ignorant of the distinction. The Old Testament doesn't "teach" people to kill everyone who doesn't believe as they do. The Quran, on the other hand, clearly commands all Muslims to take up the sword against non-Muslims, even the "people of the Book." There is no comparison here, which is why today virtually all religion influenced terrorism derives from an Islamic source.

As a believer, I was taught many times that God wanted Moses to kill the Canaanite babies and children because they had no chance to grow up righteously.. sort of a mercy killing thing.

Well, I was never taught that, even in Catholic and Baptist school. It was just one of those things we left to God's mysterious will.
The point being, in every lesson I had over the years regarding the Old Testament, the teaching was that the story was true and it was God's will to have Moses slaughter families (with the exception of virgin girls)... even animals.

Sure it was, but this doesn't translate to "danger" in modern society unless you can provide evidence that adherents are using these passages to kill others. So... where is the evidence?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: The movie Fitna

Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Kevin,

I never said Jews or Christians were dangerous or that they wanted to kill every non-believer or anything else like that.

I also don't think most Muslims are dangerous nor are they going to kill any non-believer.

Not at all...

All I'm saying is that in the Old Testament, there is a good example of God telling his chosen men to slaughter families, children, babies and everyone except the virgin girls, due to their disbelief.

Similarly, there are teachings in Islam that also indicate God wants non-believers destroyed.

If believers in the Old Testament actually believe the Bible, they are left trying to justify how Moses was considered a friend of God as he slaughtered children and babies, while those following Allah are somehow horrible for doing basically the same thing.

Again, the fact that Christians, Jews, and Muslims don't actually kill non-believers is not the point. Of course they don't, (at least most of them... there are fanatics in all religions).

But it is clear that the teaching that God wants non-believers destroyed is there in religious texts.

So, how do Old Testament believers (the ones who actually believe in the Bible), justify the actions of Moses while condemning Muslims extremists?

Why did Moses and Joshua slaughter all those innocent people?

Was it not because God commanded it?

td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_Inconceivable
_Emeritus
Posts: 3405
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:44 am

Re: The movie Fitna

Post by _Inconceivable »

truth dancer wrote:If believers in the Old Testament actually believe the Bible, they are left trying to justify how Moses was considered a friend of God as he slaughtered children and babies, while those following Allah are somehow horrible for doing basically the same thing.



Hi TD,

Makes sense to me.
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Not sure what you're upset about, Kevin (Kevin?)

Historically, both groups (Jews and Muslims) have justified genocide in the name of their God. Will the real God of the universe please stand and take responsibility for commanding either atrocity?

Not likely. I don't think the real God (if there is one) had anything to do with them.

I think that is part of TD's point. It's time to rethink some very wrongheaded Old Testament stories that make God as human as the most evil of our race (because if He is, why in the hell should we follow Him???).

The movie is sobering. The indoctrination is real. I've witnessed it in the conversations with those (Muslim friends born/raised in the middle east) that I thought weren't taken by it. The concept of Jihad is very real to them. It's a matter of honor, alliegance and integrity. Very troubling.

Very broken, these souls are.
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