Wall Street Journal on Mormons and Prop 8

[_mms]

In a Wall Street Journal article posted with tomorrow's date, and that may be found here:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122186063716658279.html

This is reported:

Mormon donors said they weren't coerced. "Nobody twisted my arm," said Richard Piquet, a Southern California accountant who gave $25,000 in support of Proposition 8. He said Mormon Church leaders called donating "a matter of personal conscience." Some Mormons who declined to donate said their local church leaders had made highly charged appeals, such as saying that their souls would be in jeopardy if they didn't give. Church spokesmen said any such incident wouldn't reflect Mormon Church policy.

Bolding mine.

How is it not Mormon Church policy to suggest that souls will be in jeopardy if the counsel of the First Presidency is not followed? Isn't that precisely the view of the Church? Again, why does the Church not simply say,

"It is a teaching of our church that following the counsel of modern day prophets is essential to the exaltation of God's children. The prophets have counseled us to give time and money to this cause. Those who do not follow this counsel and do not repent risk not obtaining exaltation for failure to follow the counsel of modern prophets. So, yes, it is a true statement that those who do not give time and money as requested may be putting their souls in jeopardy for failing to comply with the counsel of the prophets."

Is any of what I stated in my hypothetical statement not true? It seems to me that we are constantly running from our teachings these days.

And this was interesting:

Robert Bolingbroke, a Mormon who lives near San Diego, said he and his wife decided on their own to donate $3,000 in August. Later, he was invited to participate in a conference call led by a high church official, known as a member of the Quorum of Seventy. Mr. Bolingbroke, a former president and chief operating officer of The Clorox Co., estimates that 40 to 60 Mormon potential donors were on that call, and he said it was suggested that they donate $25,000, which Mr. Bolingbroke did earlier this month. Mr. Bolingbroke said he doesn't know how he or the other participants on the call were selected. Church leaders keep tithing records of active members, who are typically asked to donate 10% of their income each year to the Mormon Church.

[_Roger Morrison]

Thanks for the thread, and the WSJ site. Interesting information. It is reminiscent of ERA. And we know the eventual out come of that... LDS & such won the skirmish but lost the war. So it will eventually be in this situation.

On the surface this seems to be a moral issue. As it is through out the Evan/RC world. But as Terry Givens points out in the Journal article, it is MUCH more than that in the LDS world. This LDS crisis--it is nothing less--as before, puts front & centre unique/peculiar Mormon doctrine that has its feet in pre-mortality & post-mortality, as does no other Christian sect or denomination.

To this point-in-time LDS have survived Polygamy, Black equality and a number of less significant issues. However this right of Gays to commit to each other legally through marriage calls into question LDS theological claims that are beyond imagination, except that of those who wish to believe them. Let it be so, all are free to believe in a Democracy.

However IF/WHEN that belief (LDS) interferes in the rights of others (Gays) to follow THEIR conscience in ways that do not cause pain & suffering to others, nor interferes with the rights of others, they (LDS interferants) have stepped from Democracy to Theocratic Fascism showing their true colours.

Such a stance will only survive in ignorance and fear. In the interest of self-preservation, LDS Inc is calling forth the funds of their members (Inc can't use its own billions) to preserve those conditions, knowing ignorance & fear seed their harvest. Truth is, Humanity advances in spite of such autocrats... Earth does orbit the sun... (Read Terry Givens:-)
Roger

[_Danna]

Call me ignorant here, but how exactly will this affect TSCC? Civil unions have not stirred up any problems in other countries. Surely a civil contract is a different matter to a religious rite?

[_Roger Morrison]

call me ignorant here, but how exactly will this affect TSCC? Civil unions have not stirred up any problems in other countries. Surely a civil contract is a different matter to a religious rite?

Hi Danna, ignorant only because you are from NZ :-) where they are not as hog-tied to extreme Rightism--by any name...

Some segments of America (LDSism being one) live in constant fear of Satan/Devil taking over "The Land of God's Annointing". To such, EVERY utterance of change to the "Greatest Political/Social system in THE world" is a threat to family and society.

Unfortunately "Civil Liberties" are painted with a very-wide-brush, that indoctrinated Ams dip in a can labeled Marx/Lennin/Commie/Red/Socialism which advocates for Universal Health-care; Education; and even included, "disturbing the southern Blacks" in the '50s & '60s to discredit any disturbance of the status-quo...

To illustrate, a quote from a Mormon writer, JL Newquist, quoting J.Edgar Hoover's address 12/04/63: "...divide & weaken America...in the intense Civil Rights movement for America's 20 million negroes..."

But as they say, "that's history." (Which too was more religious (to LDS Inc) than the normal person could even imagine, recall: "...the curse/mark of Cain." To many LDS was as valid as ever, pre 1978 & to some still is.)

Presently we have another Civil Liberty in question which the same repressive LDS force that fought ERA is again fighting, to preserve their prejudice & discrimination towards another group.

This time it's homosexual humans as deserving as heterosexul humans to enjoy the benefits of their tax dollars and human (Constitutional) rights..

Don't know IF that helps?? Nice to hear from NZ. I have a Grandaughter teaching there :-)

Warm regards, Roger

[_harmony]

However IF/WHEN that belief (LDS) interferes in the rights of others (Gays) to follow THEIR conscience in ways that do not cause pain & suffering to others, nor interferes with the rights of others, they (LDS interferants) have stepped from Democracy to Theocratic Fascism showing their true colours.

Unfortunately you are correct, Roger. And this will not change until we have a new set of leaders. This is simply history repeating itself. We never seem to learn from our mistakes.

Inspiration has long since left our leaders, and we are left with simply the prejudices of old old white middle to upper class men who have no humility and less humanity. Men who do not listen to God. Men who live on ego and hubris. And men who have the unmitigated gall to pass their own prejudices off as God's word.

Good grief.

[_bcspace]

And we know the eventual out come of that... LDS & such won the skirmish but lost the war.

Did the amendment pass?

On the surface this seems to be a moral issue. As it is through out the Evan/RC world. But as Terry Givens points out in the Journal article, it is MUCH more than that in the LDS world. This LDS crisis--it is nothing less--as before, puts front & centre unique/peculiar Mormon doctrine that has its feet in pre-mortality & post-mortality, as does no other Christian sect or denomination.

We are the salt of the earth. It's our duty. However, when the majority chooses evil.......

To this point-in-time LDS have survived Polygamy, Black equality and a number of less significant issues.

No doctrinal changes occured.

However this right of Gays to commit to each other legally through marriage calls into question LDS theological claims that are beyond imagination, except that of those who wish to believe them.

It's really the other way around.

However IF/WHEN that belief (LDS) interferes in the rights of others (Gays) to follow THEIR conscience in ways that do not cause pain & suffering to others, nor interferes with the rights of others, they (LDS interferants) have stepped from Democracy to Theocratic Fascism showing their true colours.

There is no interference at all. No one is preventing gays from marrying.

Such a stance will only survive in ignorance and fear.

CFR on the ignorance and fear.

[_Roger Morrison]

BCS, to your comments:

Did the amendment pass?

You got me there: No it did not pass. But it is not yet dead, and you know what they say, "where there's life..." I was/am wrong about the Equal Rights Amendment.

We are the salt of the earth. It's our duty. However, when the majority chooses evil.......

"When the salt has lost its savour it is thrown out..." It is only in your opinion that anyone "......choses evil......" And whomever does is subject to the consequences; even those who abide evil in the form of righteousness. As Jesus attempted to bring that truth to the Pharasees. Recall the parable of those self-righteous to whom Jesus said, "...depart I never knew you..."

No doctrinal changes occured.

And that says more than anything, that the LDS Church is not guided by a/the Spirit of humility, or Jesus. But, that in its arrogance, LDSism is blind to its own deficiencies, faults and misrepresentations of truth and nobility. Really, it time for them to repent... Of course that is my seriously considered opinion. Which I'm sure you wouldn't deprive me of. As I totally respect yours to be as it is...

It's really the other way around.

You'll have to explain that to me??

There is no interference at all. No one is preventing gays from marrying.

I sense word-trickery here :-) I'm sure you knew, or i gave you credit for knowing, that I was refering to, "same-sex-marriages".

So now with that clarification, is there movement afoot to prevent "same sex marriages" to which the Mormon Church has encouraged its members to support, even finacially?

CFR on the ignorance and fear.

I'm a'feared I'm ignorant of what "CFR" means. What does it mean? I doubt we will change each other's mind completely. But it is interesting getting your thoughts and perspective...

Roger

[_bcspace]

Did the amendment pass?

You got me there: No it did not pass. But it is not yet dead, and you know what they say, "where there's life..." I was/am wrong about the Equal Rights Amendment.

Victory is sweet.

We are the salt of the earth. It's our duty. However, when the majority chooses evil.......

"When the salt has lost its savour it is thrown out..." It is only in your opinion that anyone "......choses evil......" And whomever does is subject to the consequences; even those who abide evil in the form of righteousness. As Jesus attempted to bring that truth to the Pharasees. Recall the parable of those self-righteous to whom Jesus said, "...depart I never knew you..."

According to Romans 1 et. al. A vigorous rejection of homosexual practices is part of the salt's savor.

No doctrinal changes occured.

And that says more than anything, that the LDS Church is not guided by a/the Spirit of humility, or Jesus. But, that in its arrogance, LDSism is blind to its own deficiencies, faults and misrepresentations of truth and nobility. Really, it time for them to repent...

CFR

Of course that is my seriously considered opinion. Which I'm sure you wouldn't deprive me of. As I totally respect yours to be as it is...

Of course not.

However this right of Gays to commit to each other legally through marriage calls into question LDS theological claims that are beyond imagination, except that of those who wish to believe them.

It's really the other way around.

You'll have to explain that to me??

The audacity of gays to think their rights are being infringed is beyond imagination. They're simply looking for justification and public sanction of their meritless lifestyle.


There is no interference at all. No one is preventing gays from marrying.

I sense word-trickery here :-) I'm sure you knew, or i gave you credit for knowing, that I was refering to, "same-sex-marriages".

So now with that clarification, is there movement afoot to prevent "same sex marriages" to which the Mormon Church has encouraged its members to support, even finacially?

There is nothing whatsoever standing in the way of same sex marriages now. However, there is no compelling reason for such marriages to be sanctioned or recognized by the state. There are plenty of reasons for the state not to. Shall I bring out the referenced list again on this violent and destructive lifestyle choice?

I'm a'feared I'm ignorant of what "CFR" means. What does it mean? I doubt we will change each other's mind completely. But it is interesting getting your thoughts and perspective...

Call For References.

[_Roger Morrison]

BCS statement:

According to Romans 1 et. al. A vigorous rejection of homosexual practices is part of the salt's savor.

Paul is also the one who said women should be silent. He was living in a completely different and more brutal age, void of knowledge and understandings that are common today. That he would equate, or appears to(?) all of the bad-human characteristcs exclusively (do you see it that way?) to the homosexual community is very extreme. IF he is doing so? "IF" he is, he is wrong, as anyone who has any association with Gays would assert. Those unacceptable human habits are found across the whole spectrum of society. They are not exclusive to any one segment. (They are even within our LDS community.)

Quote:
And that says more than anything, that the LDS Church is not guided by a/the Spirit of humility, or Jesus. But, that in its arrogance, LDSism is blind to its own deficiencies, faults and misrepresentations of truth and nobility. Really, it time for them to repent...


CFR

This may be futile, and granted it is subjective, and as such is put out by me with my powers of observation and standards of integrity, such as they are: The LDS claim of being "The only true Church" is arrogant, deceptive and misrepresentitive. It is bad-science--figuratively--and good-deceit--literally, as it is impossible to prove or disprove...

IMSCO it is near perfect Fascism/Totalitarianism/Autocracy, take your pick. For Mormonism to take onto itself the exclusive power of "God" (or the Universe) to bless or curse (designate) an individual into a Heaven, or a Hell is the epitome of egocenticity. And, that the power to do so is believed, makes it a power to be wary of. Where National Socialism failed Mormonism is successful, to this point in time. They work within the law while covertly financing its change. Caveat emptor...

The audacity of gays to think their rights are being infringed is beyond imagination. They're simply looking for justification and public sanction of their meritless lifestyle.

"Audacity" is in the eye of the prejudiced beholder... Of course Gays want "public sanction of their lifestyle." Don't we all expect that in America? "Meritless lifestyle"??? Please objectively explain your judgement. CFR

... there is no compelling reason for such marriages to be sanctioned or recognized by the state. There are plenty of reasons for the state not to. Shall I bring out the referenced list again on this violent and destructive lifestyle choice?

Yes, CFR please... And, please explain "...violent & destructive lifestyle..." Homosexuals that I know are anything but "violent & destructive"... Although I have encountered/know heteros who are???

Roger, over...