Is anything random?

[_Runtu]

I posted this on the aptly named MAD board, so I figured I'd do the same here:

The other day would have been my brother's thirty-ninth birthday had he not been killed 21 years ago in a car accident. A truck driver made a foolish mistake and in a matter of seconds killed three people, including my two younger brothers, and seriously injured two others.

In the aftermath, many church members said the same thing: God must have needed them "on the other side," and my parents received a phone call from then-BYU President Jeffrey Holland (my brothers were both BYU students) relaying that President Ezra Taft Benson had said essentially the same thing: God had called them on missions in the spirit world.

My mother told me that she never could believe that. She believed that the accident was a random event, the result of a stupid mistake made in an instant. She said, "I could never believe in a God who planned such a horrific accident, no matter the reason." In the weeks and months following the accident, I prayed repeatedly for an answer, and I got the same answer my mother did: sometimes things just happen.

But our conclusions seem directly counter to D&C 59:21, which tells us that we must acknowledge the hand of God in all things. Despite my disaffection from Mormonism, I still believe in a loving God, but I want to put out this question to people of all faiths: is there room in the universe for the random, or is God's hand indeed in everything? Does he cause natural disasters and terrible accidents, death and suffering, because each event is to teach us something, or do some things just happen randomly?

This is something I still struggle with.

And yes, I recognize that some people will ridicule my continued belief in God, but so what?

[_dblagent007]

I consider myself to be a TBM and I believe that God set things in motion according to natural laws. Things like droughts, hurricanes, floods, etc. happen according to those natural laws. Only in rare circumstances does he personally intervene to alter the natural outcome of an event.

As for acknowledging the hand of God in all things, I don't think that means acknowledging that God personally and affirmatively controls all things (like just now when my A/C kicked on and air came out of the vent, I don't think God personally controlled that particular event). I think it is more of acknowledging his role as the Creator of us and the Earth and the need to follow him.

I assume that you have rejected the spiritual witness as a valid method to discern truth so I am curious to know what it is that causes you to believe in a God?

[_KimberlyAnn]

John,

I'm so sorry you were robbed of your brothers no matter what the reason or whether God had anything to do with it or not.

And if anyone ridicules you for still believing in God, they'll be on my bad side! Okay, so that's not very scary, but all five feet and three inches of me has your back, for what it's worth.

I do not know the answer to your question, John, but the Bible says God causes all things to work together for good for those who love Him and are called for His purpose. I think that would include you. So, no matter why it happened, something good can come from the tragedy, even if it's simply your ability to comfort others who find themselves in a similar situation.

Perhaps working through that tragedy helped make you the good man you are today? I think so.

I wish I had something better to say.

Yours,

Kimberly

[_skippy the dead]

From a practical standpoint, I'm not convinced that there is a God. With that being said, if there were a God, I can't imagine that he/she/it would be that interested in micromanaging the lives of humans. On the other hand, my mother sees God's hand in EVERYTHING. It's almost maddening.

If I could choose a belief, maybe I'd like to think that God could intervene on behalf of his/her creations for "good" purposes, but that he/she wouldn't purposefully inflict pain or suffering on those creations. Using death or harm to another to teach someone else a lesson seems so very, very wrong.

In answer to the original question, I don't know if "random" is the word I'd choose, but I certainly don't think that events are controlled or directed by a deity. Whether there are other cosmic forces at play (karma seems like an interesting concept) is another question altogether.

And I'm so sorry you lost your brothers.

[_Gazelam]

Runtu,

Good to hear from you, even if the occasion is the discussion of the loss of your brothers. I can't even begin to perceive what that's been like for you.

Im with dblagent007 on this. I think the Father has set things in motion, and for 90% of it just makes sure timetables are kept and for the most part rarely intervenes. I think our prayers play a part in getting him to intervene, but I also believe in a certain degree of randomness.

That being said, your brothers probably are involved in the great work on the other side. They come from a family under the covenant, and are no doubt very busy.

Gaz

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi Runtu,

My perspective is that God is not a conscious, willing entity. So while I might be willing to say that God is present in everything that happens, I would not speak of his "hand" or "plan".

Those Mormons who believe in something like open theism and libertarian free-will can actually accept both conclusions. They would agree with your mother that what happened was the result of a human choice. But they would also say that God permitted it to happen and that although he may not have directly planned it, he will work to turn it to a good purpose.

Best,

-Chris

[_Ray A]

Runtu, I've talked to lots of people who have suffered enormous tragedy, a couple who lost their teen-aged twin daughters (their only children) in a car accident, I've talked to war veterans who watched their mates get blown up right in front of their eyes, a man who lost his only child and daughter in a car accident, and many more. I'm always interested to hear what their feelings and beliefs are, and to be quite frank the most common response I get is - crap happens.

We had a Governor-General who became atheist after seeing his young daughter (I think she was only nine or ten) hit and killed by a car. Everyone responds differently. I don't know if this is all "planned", because accidents happen. About two months ago I drove home a good friend of one of my sons, then two weeks after that he was involved in a car accident which killed three in the car. The driver was speeding and lost control, the car went into a spin and slammed into a pole near a gas pipe, the car exploded and incinerated the other three, but on impact he was flung out of the back of the car and survived, though with serious burns. I have to admit I do ask "why?" in situations like this. Of course it could all be situational circumstances, but I suppose that depends on whether you believe we have an allotted time here, or whether it's all random. I like to believe we have an allotted time, but I certainly don't believe that "God calls us home to do missionary work on the other side for the LDS Church". And my opinions are, of course, biased by what I've read regarding NDEs.

[_neworder]

Sorry to hear of your brothers. I can't even imagine what that must have been like.

I have been going to an Evangelical Church the last few years and most of them believe that God and Satan is in control of every little thing. One guy I was talking to was telling me how God made all the lights green on state street when he was in a hurry to the Church to get their on time. Another lady was on a 2 month missions group to Spain when she dropped a suitcase on her foot injuring it and blamed it on Satan to hinder the work.

Personally I have a hard time believing that God or Satan control much in the world.

When I was a believer I always wondered how it was decided where in the world and what period of time spirits where sent to when coming to earth. Was it just "Random" or where more valiant spirits sent to families to be born in the covenant like many of the LDS leaders have taught over the years.

I think the Father has set things in motion, and for 90% of it just makes sure timetables are kept and for the most part rarely intervenes. I think our prayers play a part in getting him to intervene, but I also believe in a certain degree of randomness.

One has to ask if Satan is more involved with us and intervenes more than God does.

I had a brother in law that was driving to the temple and got in a wreck only a few blocks away (his fault) and stopped him from going. Come to find out that at the time he was doing a lot of things he shouldn't be doing and would not be considered "Temple Worthy". A few in my family talked about how maybe it was God stopping him from entering the House of the Lord when he was unworthy. So who was it? God, Satan, or was it just Random.

[_Sethbag]

Let's see - one "unworthy" Mormon gets in a car wreck to stop him from entering the temple unworthily. Elsewhere, a complete and total non-Mormon uses a fake temple recomend to enter the temple and experience the endowment - and gets away with it!

Some lady drops her suitcase on her foot, and that's Satan doing his part to prevent her from fulfilling her mission. Elsewhere, someone serves out their mission, and converts tons of people to their faith.

Some little kid gets sick. The elders annoint the child and bless him, and yet he dies. Some other little kid gets sick. The elders annoint this child, and the child recovers.

This is all so random, and so arbitrary. People see what they want to see. When there's something they can attribute to God, some people will do so, but these same people will just shrug with a "God's ways are not our ways" when something else doesn't work out, and God doesn't intervene, or whatever.

In the Old Testament, God supposedly moved whole mountains. Donkeys and snakes talked. Seas were parted. The Earth ceased rotating for hours to prolong the day so that a given battle could proceed, and God's forces could slaughter their enemies.

Funny how in this day and age of Satellite geography, GPS, photographs, etc. no mountains ever turn up missing, no seas end up parted, and the Earth never stops rotating so that God's chosen people can accomplish something they weren't quite done with at the end of the day.

Runtu, I'm sorry to hear about your brothers. That's really sad, and I offer my belated condolences. You did ask what we thought, and so here's what I think. It just happened. No deity made it happen. No deity turned that occasion into some opportunity for good to come of it. It just happened. I'm very sorry it happened, but our sorrow cannot change the past.