A Challenge For Gazelam

[_KimberlyAnn]

Thanks for replying, Gaz.

KA

[_Jersey Girl]

Gaz,

I just wrote a lengthy reply this post...and promptly lost it! There was a really good sermon in it, too! Let's try that again boys and girls...

About 3/4 of the way into my mission I got the opportunity to teach a young homosexual. We had been teaching his family, and it just so happened that on the day his mother and sisters came to church the talk that day in sacrament was against homosexuality. The mother said she could not join a church that felt that way, and when we asked her why she stated that her son was gay. We asked to meet with him.

I think I've read this story before. Fair enough.

When we met him he had brought two female friends. He wore makeup, a yellow sweater over his shoulders, and "Daisy Duke" style shorts. We taught all three of them a first discussion. The young man and one of the friends decided to take the second discussion. The Holy Ghost was working them both over. Soon th emakeup began to disappear, and the clothign became more appropriate. His gay friends of coarse ostracized him, but he soon made new ones in the church. He had to be interviwed for baptism by the mission president, and was shortly baptised into the church. By the tim eI left the area he was blessing the sacrament and his mother and sisters had also been baptised.

I have no doubt that people who seek change, often change their appearance. It's a tangible and viewable represtentation of what's going on in our hearts. I also think there are folks who when they join a group, in this case a church, adopt the clothing style of the group. This is why we have "church dresses". :-)

I did alot of praying for that young man. I was very excited to see him change so dramatically. It was an amazing thing to see him receive answers to his prayers, and to see the change the Holy Ghost can inspire and assist in an individual.

I believe you and how you feel to be part of God's work.

My hatred towards Gays is focused on those who would militantly promote their lifestyle, and try to state that their actions are a right and that I have to accept it.

I understand how you feel about homosexual behavior, I also (because I have a few more miles on me than you do) know how hatred can consume our thoughts and be counterproductive to what God expects from believer's. Remember what I just said there.

Here comes an analogy (it's really a sermon) that I've used on another board when engaging a preacher (!). I'll modify it because you are LDS.

Suppose I were a gay person who was interested in investigating your church. I drive by the Ward every day and see the "Visitor's Welcome" sign on the door and decide to attend on Sunday. I dress appropriately, conduct myself quietly and respectfully. I sit in the back row so that I can observe without drawing attention to myself. The talk that day is about the sin of homosexual behavior. I'm okay with it, I understand that my life may not be acceptable in your religion, but I'm seeking the Lord and that's why I'm here. After the meeting, I walk down the hallway where people are congregating, visiting and chatting. Kids are running through the hallway. :-) As I pass by you, I hear you say (because the talk got you fired up and a little angry as you digested it) that you hold a hatred for gays. And I think to myself "these people hate me!" I beat it to the exit, get in my car never to return.

When people online read your expressions of hatred, they are already in your church. They are effectively watching you in the hallway after the talk and hearing your expressed hatred of gays.

What if the reader is gay, Gaz? Will your words make you seem approachable to them or turn them away? And what would I see in you that would make me want to have what you have? Hatred? If you were me, would you run TO you? Or AWAY from you?

I do not have to accept perversion and sick behavior. I will never see it as normal or anything less than deviant. Homosexuality is a cancer on society and is only becoming accepted in these days where pornography is rampant and people moral compasses are askew. Homosexuality exists in the state it does due to moral apathy and a loss of virtue.

You are right. You don't have to accept homosexual behavior. But when you express yourself in that way, are you effectively ripping down the Visitor's Welcome sign?

I love and acccept any person who is struggling to overcome carnal temptation and recognizes their own faults and is striving to make themselves more Christlike. I have nothing but the back of my hand for anyone who would strive to make me accept crass behavior and moral depravity.

Those are your conditions, Gaz. And (paraphrasing) Christ died for us while we were yet sinners.

Who doles out the conditions, Gaz? You or Christ? The Christ that you worship died for people IN sin. Not after they'd made a decision to follow him. He died BEFORE.

He died before you, before me, before the gay man or woman ever knew him.

Should you show others the back of your hand or a hand outstretched? Were Christ's hands outstretched on the cross?

Think about it.

It is Christlike to pray for and assist those who are seeking to repent. It is also Christlike to stand up for a moral principle and fight against evil and pernicious behavior.

It's also Christlike to meet another with outstretched hands and the truth delivered...in love.

Jersey

[_Jersey Girl]

Nice edit there, Ray.

Could you explain to me why you think Scratch included me in the original post? I didn't quite understand what he was referring to when he wrote, "Ray, it nearly breaks my heart when I read such things" and included mention of me in his last line. The one you edited.

Your take?

I'll go back and take a look later, Jersey Girl, but right now I have to get off my lazy butt and do some things. I probably edited it because I didn't think what I was addressing was pertinent to you. You should know I have my own mind, and I certainly don't have any ill feelings for you. If Scratch does, then I'm not going to address that portion of his post.

Don't trouble yourself, it's not important.

[_Gazelam]

Jersey,

I like your analogy about the welcome sign, and to a certain extent you are correct. In searching for some good scriptures for Kims presentation, I came across this old gem:

Moroni 7

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

That being said, I still don't feel that as a christian we should just lay down and be tolerant to the point of being victims by a group of people who are asking us to accept gross perversion as a normal lifestyle choice.
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[_solomarineris]

That being said, I still don't feel that as a christian we should just lay down and be tolerant to the point of being victims by a group of people who are asking us to accept gross perversion as a normal lifestyle choice.

have to LOL...
this board in itself is a "Perversion" and you are partaking it.
you spend more time immersing yourself here than attending your sunbeam classes
every Sunday.

[_harmony]

That being said, I still don't feel that as a christian we should just lay down and be tolerant to the point of being victims by a group of people who are asking us to accept gross perversion as a normal lifestyle choice.
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I don't think that was the intent, Gaz. You don't have to accept gay marriage just because it's legal. You don't accept drinking alcohol, yet it is a perversion of what you consider to be the norm. You don't have to accept divorce just because it's legal and the norm. You don't have to accept abortion just because it's legal and accepting it is the norm.

Gays didn't victimize Christians. It was the other way around.