Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

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_Ray A

Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _Ray A »

I was just reading Dr. Shades' Exit Story, and came across this:

Many people, post-Mormons included, mention that Mormonism does a lot of good. This may be so, but it should be made known to the world that it also does a lot of harm, intellectually, for all the reasons I cited above. (It also does harm by placing a huge burden of time and money on its members for naught.) In my opinion, whether or not Mormonism is a good thing depends on whether the advantages (community ties and emphasis on righteous living) outweigh the disadvantages (stifling of the intellect). I suppose only time and the individual member or post-member can tell. (My emphasis)



Member, non-member or post-member, do tell your opinion.
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_Thama
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Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _Thama »

I would categorize the Church as doing far more good than harm, myself. I credit the emphasis on education, the family environment, and the personal approach to finding truth, as well as the many service projects and my mission for much that is positive about my character and my life. I think religion in general fills several important needs for many people, both in providing a sense of comfort in life and a solid moral framework for those who otherwise might not be able to find one, and Mormonism does a very good job at this task.

A quick anecdote: I met my current girlfriend soon after my exit from the Church. She's an atheist, a former Communist (from Cuba), and generally thought of religious people as uneducated and simple-minded, and religion as being inherently wasteful and evil. Since she's gotten to know my (still very TBM) family and other Mormon friends, she's become so impressed with the support system in the Church and the sort of people and programs that are in the Church that she has even commented to me that she's twice told me that she wouldn't mind joining the Church as a secret unbeliever just as a social and family thing -- an idea I found rather weird.

I've never been able to relate to the horror stories some tell about their time in the Church, or even stories about intellectual repression and bigotry (with the exception of general homophobia). I also tend to note that most of those telling these stories spent their time in the Church in Utah or those areas round about (Idaho, Arizona, etc). My family has only one tragic experience in the Church, dealing with a husband from a family from small-town Utah, and all the backwards, misogynistic ideas and behavior he exhibited. There seems to me to exist a real cultural divide between Utah Mormonism and the rest of the Church.
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains.
_Mercury
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Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _Mercury »

Mormonism does more harm than good by far. By mormonisms self-viewed standard, The Peoples temple in san francisco did great good as well.

The bad that Mormonism does to the intellectually minded is sickening. Rational thought is removed and supplanted with magical thinking. This is a dangerous and destructive mindset created to ensure subservient worker castes that serve the small and entrenched families controlling the flow of tithing into contractors pockets.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_Dr. Shades
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Post by _Dr. Shades »

(Thanks for reading, Ray!)

I agree with Mercury: It does more harm than good. In addition to his reasons, I note the vast amount of money that gets leeched from its members, money that would far better serve the families who originally donated it.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Trevor
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Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _Trevor »

I would be happy enough with calling the Church a relatively benign institution, if we could only get it to stop interfering in the great march toward greater civil rights in this country.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_GoodK

Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _GoodK »

Without a doubt, more harm than good in my life.

For details please visit www.mormongulag.com.
_harmony
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Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _harmony »

Some comments about the comments:

1. magical thinking wasn't founded by the Mormon church and isn't confined to the Mormon church. So I don't see how the Mormon church's brand of magical thinking can be construed to be any better or worse than any other magical thinking.

2. I think the further away from Utah one's ward is, the less the LDS culture effects one's family, job, or entertainment choices. Utah Mormons, which includes southern Idaho Mormons and Northern Arizona Mormons, really are different from Mormons from outside the Zion Curtain. Life in a ward that is thousands of miles from Utah is a lot different from life in a ward in SLC.

3. Good and harm are in the eye of the beholder. What is good in my world view may be harmful in another's. Any time we try to assign value statements to one's experiences, we enter into the subjective realm, and there is little that is concrete.

4. Many many church goers tithe 10%. Mormons are not unique, nor are they strange in this regard. What they do with their money may be different from what other churches do, but that doesn't make them evil. (What makes them at least borderline on the evil thing is the lack of openness in the financials....yes yes... I know... it's my #1 pet peeve about the church... that and the lies about the priesthood).
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Ray A

Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _Ray A »

One of the reasons I did this thread is because of something I came across on the web. Chris Tolworthy was a lifelong, die-hard TBM from the UK when he created this website, Why Prophets, which is now linked to exmormon.org.uk. I don't even know if he posts here, nor much about his background at this stage. He stopped developing the Why Prophets site in 2000, but now has a new site Here* (see note below).


On one page he gives ten reasons why children should be Protected from Mormonism.

Considering his staunch TBM background, I was a little more than amazed. It would, I suppose, be similar to someone like BC Space doing a turn around. I would have thought this impossible, but now I'm not so sure. Then again, Dr. Shades was described as the "Ambassador for Mormonism". And many of you come from similar backgrounds.

I think, like many people, including Thama, that the Church does a lot of good. But then there's GoodK, whose experience was nothing less than traumatic. So we have quite a few contrasts. For me this is a tough one to call, considering the contrasts, and considering that Mormons have next to zero influence on the Australian way of life it doesn't directly affect me in any way. But I have to move beyond that self-centred view if Rodney Stark is anywhere near right, which seems not at this stage. I'm also thinking about Ed Firmage's comments. All I can say is that in its current phase, Mormonism seems to be doing more harm than good in America.


The only solution I see is the impossible one, and that is for the Church to drop its literalist views which embraces a potentially harmful fundamentalism in many individuals. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Or will it? I think if the current trend continues, there will be more harm than good done, at least in America, at this stage. The Church does have the capability for accommodation, as we've seen with polygamy and the 1978 change. But what happens at the macro level doesn't always happen at the micro level, and families are still being divided, and some members still think that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence, and some of these points are made on Tolworthy's exmo website. It seems to me that people like him have some credibility, considering the length he went to defend the Church as a TBM and all the effort he put into Why Prophets, only to turn around and warn people of the dangers of the Church.


On the point of bringing children up in the Church, it maybe is a good thing, until they reach a certain age. But what happens when, like Dr. Shades, everything they believed suddenly falls apart? The Church will never vanish away, but I wonder if it's possible to have a "gentler Mormonism"? One that does far more good than harm. I don't think that's entirely up to the leadership, but to individual members as well. But maybe I'm wrong. Look at what happened to the Worldwide Church of God. When Herbert Armstrong was the head of that Church, I don't think anyone then living could have predicted the outcome. But the LDS Church isn't a one-man band, like the WWCG was.

As I said, I'm not affected, but I will say that although I've taught my children to at least respect it, I'm glad that none of them have chosen to be Mormons. I know the complications and problems all to well.

* A note from Tolworthy: This is one of a series of web pages I created between 2001and 2006. I was angry and frustrated at the LDS Church. Since then I have moved on and calmed down. So please remember, if you read these pages, that they reflect my past and not my present feelings. Thanks for your understanding! - Chris Tolworthy
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Does the Church Do More Harm Than Good?

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Ray, a good debateable topic. Thama, nice post.

Sort-of, one man's treasure, another's trash--meat & poison et al.
Depends where one is in their life regarding religion generally and the choice-of-fit specifically.

My personal recent experience--"...why are You here?" as discussed somewhat a few weeks ago, confirmed all of the negatives mentioned above. It also revealed the mentality & spirituality of that BP--his personal nature & nurture. One that would undoubedly influence his family, particularly his 7 children, badly in my opinion. In this case, I think he contaminated the Branch. LDSism didn't contaminate him...

The Cuban woman honestly observed what attracts AND converts more people than not. IMSCO. Take those "goods" away and there still remains Mormon "truth": Only living Prophet; only complete Salvation offered; only one with "sealing ordinances"; only one claiming to make Gods; only one that keeps a person from heaven's fullness because they drink coffee...

Ray said:
The only solution I see is the impossible one, and that is for the Church to drop its literalist views which embraces a potentially harmful fundamentalism in many individuals. But we all know that isn't going to happen. Or will it? I think if the current trend continues, there will be more harm than good done, at least in America, at this stage. The Church does have the capability for accommodation, as we've seen with polygamy and the 1978 change. But what happens at the macro level doesn't always happen at the micro level, and families are still being divided, and some members still think that blacks were not valiant in the pre-existence, and some of these points are made on Tolworthy's exmo website. It seems to me that people like him have some credibility, considering the length he went to defend the Church as a TBM and all the effort he put into Why Prophets, only to turn around and warn people of the dangers of the Church.

The solution is clear as stated. However, I'm of the opinion that it will happen; long after we expell the breath we've been holding ;-) It's folks like Tolworthy, Ray, Shades, TD, Harmony, Jason and many others here & elsewhere, & in new generations, who will make it happen...

Warm regards, Roger :-)
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
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