Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

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_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Gadianton wrote:LoP,

You're not reading what I write, especially the quoted material from SEP and Godfrey-Smith which makes the case for me concerning the "micro" and the "macro", I'll return to that briefly at the end here, or in another post.

There is, quite simply, no reason to think paradigm shifts only apply to "scientific data." I just finished a short introduction to literary theory by oxford u press and a great deal of it dealt with, you guessed it, paradigms. It didn't mention them by name but the concept was remarkably clear.


LoP, congratulations on discovering literary theory. If you keep going down this route, you'll understand why at one point, Kuhn came close to sounding like he regreted even writing his book, e.g., the vast applications of "paradigms" to a growing anti-science academic culture which had been largely spearheaded by literary theorists. Clearly, I don't think Kuhn can copyright the word or concept of a "paradigm", but it is wrong to take a later adaption of the word "paradigm" or even worse, a similar concept under a different name, and then attribute it to Kuhn as if he's the one who argued for it and he's the authority by which one rightly appeals to.



I imagine we are closer to understanding one another than is apparent in the thread. I am aware of some important limitations of Kuhn's views. I read a few chapters in Godfrey-Smith's Theory and Reality in regards to Kuhn and found it interesting. One of his criticisms of Kuhn was that he seemed to be too precise in his diagnosis; that "single paradigms rarely have the kind of dominance Kuhn describes" for example. I agree, and think Kuhn was basically shooting for the largest and easiest targets in the examples he employed. Lacking proper nuance, I got the impression that Kuhn had room to give, so to speak, and that he would give that room if pressed, especially with actual historical examples. Interestingly, some of the criticisms by Smith fit comfortably with the way I've seen people like Christensen interpret Kuhn as well. In this instance, then, Kuhn is not seen as a pure "oracle," if you will, but as an exemplar, though infallible, whose paradigm concept transfers quite well across borders. Especially fruitful in that regard was Kuhn's postscript explanation of why two people can speak honestly, accurately, and right past each other. This is where Christensen makes his comparison between Vogel, Metcalfe interpretation and that of people like John Sorensen. All have important things to say with reasons they say them, but it can be difficult for them to talk to each other without falling back into mere polemics. Kuhn's idea of "translating" was fascinating in that regard.

So there are cogent responses to Kuhn, but again, I have not seen so-called "apologists" apply Kuhn so rigidly as to render them impotent. Most notably, again, was Christensen's paradigms papers.

I will say this: Kuhn's views ought to be studied as they are as well, so as not to impute improper views to him. It is possible to go only so far with someone, but it is responsible to make sure the impression is not given that you are going all the way with them, either! So thanks for encouraging me to revisit Kuhn, it has proved most interesting and I think helpful as well.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Gadianton
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Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _Gadianton »

Indeed, you have conceded that it does happen to individuals before whole groups. If the group doesn't follow this doesn't mean the individual didn't undergo a change in paradigm.


No, I didn't concede that. I maintain that paradigm shifts happen to communities, not individuals, in the writing of Kuhn. I also maintain that there is a "narrow" and "broad" sense of the word paradigm. The problem is, paradigms shift in the broad sense, in Kuhn, not the narrow sense. Further, the two are linked together, which makes it confusing, if it were as simple as you suggest, then Kuhn wouldn't have had to invent new terminology.

I've linked the Godfrey-Smith book where you can read the entire section on Kuhn for free. I've linked to the SEP entry on Kuhn. Now I will link to the wiki article an the term "paradigm shift" since it's a quickie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift

Definitions are given in all these sources of what a paradigm shift is. Examples of supposed paradigm shifts are given. I challenge you to find anywhere, in any of these sources, a statement that says an individual can have a paradigm shift, or an example of a paradigm shift happening at the level of an individual. One would think, that if paradigm shifts happening to individual people were important at all to Kuhn's thought, then one of these commentaries would at least mention it. In fact, without having ever read Barbour, I would love to see if you could provide a quote from him where he talks about the "individual paradigms" of people shifting. I can't imagine he would do that. If he does, then I will not fault you for talking about your paradigm shifting or Kevin's ever again. I'm pretty generous I think here, I'm going to take a chance, and allow the definition of "paradigm" from an apologist -- by my definition -- not a more reputable source like the SEP, to vindicate your use of the word "paradigm" as shifting on an "individual level".

Your reading is too simplistic. On your account, people have opinions. These opinions are paradigms. People can change their opinions, and hence, their paradigms. One individual might be very influential, and convince a whole group to believe his way. When Kevin Graham changes his opinion, therefore, he's shifted paradigms, and when everyone agrees with Kevin's new idea, they've shifted paradigms. that's not it.

The "narrow sense" of the word paradigm that relates to individual scientists cannot shift. Think about it, a "paradigm" as an exemplar is something like, Mendel's pea experiment, and it can't shift. Can it? Can a pea experiment shift? However, in the broad sense, as a whole new, deep-reaching way of doing science, the practices and shared rules inspired by the exemplar, it can shift. When Mendel does his pea experiments, you want to say he's shifted paradigms, but that's not the way Kuhn or any commentary on Kuhn I've ever read talks about it.

A paradigm on the "individual" level is not the individual's own thoughts or perspective per se, but a kind of novel output such as a famous experiment, yet it's difficult to say that absent the experiment becoming famous and serving as an exemplar, that it could ever rightfully be called a paradigm in and of itself. So the narrow and broad sense are tied together. As anomalies accumulate and new ideas are put on the table, these "new ideas" are not called paradigms. Once a "new idea" gets traction, then it becomes a paradigm, but that can't ever happen with just one person. There will now be two paradigms, the new and the old. when individual scientists drop the old and take up the new, no one ever talks about them "shifting paradigms" except you, Wade, David, a number of other apologists, and now infamously, Scottie. If the new paradigm eventually wins out, then the "paradigm has shifted".

After a given discipline has changed from one paradigm to another, this is called, in Kuhn's terminology, a scientific revolution or a paradigm shift. It is often this final conclusion, the result of the long process, that is meant when the term paradigm shift is used colloquially: simply the (often radical) change of worldview, without reference to the specificities of Kuhn's historical argument.
wiki

Sorry, LoP, but individuals do not have paradigm shifts.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Gadianton wrote:Definitions are given in all these sources of what a paradigm shift is. Examples of supposed paradigm shifts are given. I challenge you to find anywhere, in any of these sources, a statement that says an individual can have a paradigm shift, or an example of a paradigm shift happening at the level of an individual.


Again, as part of the very process an individual can undergo a change in paradigm. If the paradigm is fruitful he can bring more fellows along with him. I'm not concerned with whether someone has specifically noted an individual paradigm shift (except that individual cases have already been shown, and then spreading to a group or community), it is a theory, not empirical science. I agree that Kuhn was largely focused on an overall effect on a scientific community. This, however, in no sense prevents an individual from encountering a paradigm shift in the basic sense, where the word is seen anew, as Kuhn describes. Different data are interpreted differently, different questions are asked and answered or forgotten, depending on the new view. Can you provide any source which denies an individual can encounter a change or shift in paradigm? I "challenge" you to produce any example noting that a paradigm shift cannot occur on an individual or small-group level. (Kuhn frames it as a conversion. Clearly such a thing can occur on an individual level.) If an entire group of scientists holding one particular paradigm were to die suddenly, save one scientist, would the paradigm no longer exist? Of course not.

One would think, that if paradigm shifts happening to individual people were important at all to Kuhn's thought, then one of these commentaries would at least mention it. In fact, without having ever read Barbour, I would love to see if you could provide a quote from him where he talks about the "individual paradigms" of people shifting. I can't imagine he would do that. If he does, then I will not fault you for talking about your paradigm shifting or Kevin's ever again. I'm pretty generous I think here, I'm going to take a chance, and allow the definition of "paradigm" from an apologist -- by my definition -- not a more reputable source like the SEP, to vindicate your use of the word "paradigm" as shifting on an "individual level".


I'll grab my book and see what I can find specifically.


Sorry, LoP, but individuals do not have paradigm shifts.


Can an individual leave on paradigmatic view for another? To say otherwise is simply untenable.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Gadianton
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Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _Gadianton »

yes, a person can leave one view for another. A view isn't a paradigm. A paradigm, per his postscript you keep talking about in structures (as Godfrey-Smith notes) is an examplar, e.g. Mendel's peas or Maxwell's equations. You further have to understand that an exemplar has to be an exemplar to something, in this case, to a community of people, scientists. While Mendel's work was burried, it wasn't an exemplar or paradigm to science. When the first five people read it and became convinced, it still wasn't an exemplar to science. There is at this point, no paradigm to shift.

My challenge to you makes sense: If per Kuhns terminology, as he defines it, clearly if it is important to understand that individual people undergo "paradigm shifts", and Kuhn talks about people, as individuals, undergoing paradigm shifts, and people "have paradigms" and this is an important aspect of his work, then there should be some scholarly article or commentary out there that notes this.

Your challenge makes no sense: Your idiosyncratic usage of the term "paradigm" as a person's personal view or opinion that can change five or ten times a day, if it is as nonsensical as I think it is, would find no reason to be contradicted by the SEP or a normal, scholarly source.

If all the main scholarly commentaries on Kuhn use the term "paradigm shift" in reference to a community shift, and never even make a note of "personal paradigm shifts", then you either need to concede the point or make a note to self: write paper and publish, because you have some important overlooked material to offer.

I'm actually kind of surprised. I expected that you would come at me on the points related to incommensurability which is my primary problem with apologetic uses of Kuhn. The personal paradigm shift stuff I noted and the perspective as paradigm shift is just the dumb stuff, the evidence that apologists haven't really done any basic homework and just assume they are making points that have already been demonstrated by important philosophers, that critics are dogmatic worshipers of science, postivists, and they are on the new trend.

But no, you come at me guns blazing to defend the colloquial "paradigm as personal view of things" as being rigorously grounded in Kuhn, and go so far as to say that Kuhn warned about people like me who understood paradigm shifts as related to scientific communities. It's a very odd situation to find myself in.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_LifeOnaPlate
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Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Methinks you conflate paradigm with the actual scientific revolution. But despite our different understanding, my revisiting Barbour has shown that he applied paradigmatic views to individuals in the realm of religious faith, which he differentiated from science, though argued that there is a certain faith in science as well. You are right in noting that paradigms are structured around or by exemplars, but it remains that a person can decide between paradigms. A person can follow one paradigm over another. Clearly that is tied up into a community, of course, but that community doesn't have to agree on all things or be carved in stone complete with membership cards. Communities themselves are made up of individuals who understand the world through the paradigm. Can someone, a single individual, who believes Newton is the be-all-end-all, come to view things written by Einstein as evidence against the initial view? I would argue that, yes, such is the case. A community cannot exist without an individual. An individual can "convert." Barbour discusses the concept of religious paradigms in chapter 7 of his Myths Models and Paradigms. He argues that things like simplicity, coherence, supporting evidence, etc. all contribute to the individual's "choice between paradigms." He continues "the most one can expect [noting the greater deal of subjectivity in things religious] of any set of beliefs is that it will make more sense of all of the available evidence than alternative beliefs."(pg. 145) On the next page he mentions again the individual nature of critical reflection of one's beliefs in regards to religious faith as well (pg. 146). So as you wanted, here is direct mention of an individual assessing their faith along with the possibility of changing a paradigm.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_LifeOnaPlate
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Posts: 2799
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:50 pm

Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _LifeOnaPlate »

Gadianton wrote:But no, you come at me guns blazing to defend the colloquial "paradigm as personal view of things" as being rigorously grounded in Kuhn, and go so far as to say that Kuhn warned about people like me who understood paradigm shifts as related to scientific communities. It's a very odd situation to find myself in.



More disrespectful caricatures. My "guns are blazing", ie I disagree with your insistence that a paradigm shift can only occur to a full group of people. Such an assertion is false on its face. If I really wanted my guns blazing I would have noted how obvious this is, and do other insulting things like talk about blazing guns. As it stands, though, I have noted that paradigm shifts, despite your belief, can occur on an individual level. That you would argue otherwise astounded me, hence why we got onto that aspect of the conversation.

But as we have seen, Kevin Christensen in no way "misuses" Kuhn. You've not shown in any way that he has. I've asked several times for specifics in that regard and you have failed to provide answer. Instead you have asked for evidence of a paradigm shift on the individual level which I have supplied. So you can feel yourself in an odd situation; I think you are in a very odd situation as well.
One moment in annihilation's waste,
one moment, of the well of life to taste-
The stars are setting and the caravan
starts for the dawn of nothing; Oh, make haste!

-Omar Khayaam

*Be on the lookout for the forthcoming album from Jiminy Finn and the Moneydiggers.*
_Gadianton
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 5:12 am

Re: Kuhn: An Apologist's Escape Hatch

Post by _Gadianton »

Methinks you conflate paradigm with the actual scientific revolution


then you think wrong. and i don't think i can be more clear.

but it remains that a person can decide between paradigms


Certainly, but that's not what you've been saying, you've been saying a person can shift his paradigm. In a science, which by Kuhn's definition has a paradigm, if a crisis ensues and if another paradigm arises, then all relavent parties involved will choose one paradigm or the other.

Let's go back to what you said,

Can an individual leave on paradigmatic view(?) for another


If during a period of normal science, which is governed by a single exemplar, a person is changing his views on many things, he is not "changing paradigms" since there is only one paradigm, this is pointing out the obvious absent even defining a paradigm further. Two scientists, during normal science, could have a huge argument over a "puzzle", if one of those scientists backs down and concedes the point to the other, if he changes his "views" dramatically, he has not "shifted paradigms" or "changed paradigms".

Let's go back to Kevin. First, you will be hard pressed to demonstrate Kevin Graham is a player on a stage of a scientific crisis and chose one exemplar over another. And further, since any exemplars are exemplars to a community, if a kevin out there does happen to be a researcher during a crisis in science, and if he throws his chips on the new, emerging paradigm, then it is untrue to say "his paradigm has shifted" or even, except in great equivocation "his paradigm has changed" because the paradigms in question are not his, they are not his property to change, they are the property of the community, the banners of the community, so to speak. It would be correct to say, his views changed dramatically and embraced the new paradigm.

I mostly don't disagree with what you offered from Barbour, but you didn't show Barbour claiming y's "paradigm shifted". Barbour says people can convert to a competing paradigm. Obviously. I agree.

But as we have seen, Kevin Christensen in no way "misuses" Kuhn. You've not shown in any way that he has.


I haven't really got to Christensen yet. All I've said was he's opportunistic with Kuhn. I do not see any horrible misunderstandings of Kuhn in what Christensen wrote. If he were to write that so-and-so's "paradigm shifted" then that would definitely raise an eyebrow to his comprehension. But I don't recall him making that kind or other kinds of simplistic mistakes. This quote demonstrates what I believe to be a critical mistake though, and for many different reasons. I will discuss it later.

KC wrote:Believers can assume that any current puzzles can be solved eventually, that all truth will fit into one great whole.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
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