Conundrum of the week

[_Danna]

I am having another conundrum after reading the Book of Abraham threads and thinking about the Jaredite interpreters:

First of all we are told that King Mosiah has some interpreters which can be used to translate the 24 plates that the people of King Limhi found:

Mosiah 8

7 And the king said unto him: Being grieved for the afflictions of my people, I caused that aforty and three of my people should take a journey into the wilderness, that thereby they might find the land of Zarahemla, that we might appeal unto our brethren to deliver us out of bondage.
8 And they were lost in the wilderness for the space of amany days, yet they were diligent, and found not the land of Zarahemla but returned to this land, having traveled in a land among many waters, having discovered a land which was covered with bbones of men, and of beasts, and was also covered with ruins of buildings of every kind, having discovered a land which had been peopled with a people who were as numerous as the hosts of Israel.
9 And for a testimony that the things that they had said are true they have brought atwenty-four plates which are filled with engravings, and they are of pure gold.
10 And behold, also, they have brought abreastplates, which are large, and they are of bbrass and of copper, and are perfectly sound.
11 And again, they have brought swords, the hilts thereof have perished, and the blades thereof were cankered with rust; and there is no one in the land that is able to interpret the language or the engravings that are on the plates. Therefore I said unto thee: Canst thou translate?
12 And I say unto thee again: Knowest thou of any one that can translate? For I am desirous that these records should be translated into our language; for, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of a remnant of the people who have been destroyed, from whence these records came; or, perhaps, they will give us a knowledge of this very people who have been destroyed; and I am desirous to know the cause of their destruction.
13 Now Ammon said unto him: I can assuredly tell thee, O king, of a man that can translate the records; for he has wherewith that he can look, and translate all records that are of ancient date; and it is a gift from God. And the things are called interpreters, and no man can look in them except he be commanded, lest he should look for that he ought not and he should perish. And whosoever is commanded to look in them, the same is called seer.
...
19 And now, when Ammon had made an end of speaking these words the king rejoiced exceedingly, and gave thanks to God, saying: Doubtless a agreat mystery is contained within these plates, and these interpreters were doubtless prepared for the purpose of unfolding all such mysteries to the children of men.

And just to make sure we didn't miss that...
Mosiah 21

25 Now king Limhi had sent, previous to the coming of Ammon, a asmall number of men to bsearch for the land of Zarahemla; but they could not find it, and they were lost in the wilderness.
26 Nevertheless, they did find a land which had been peopled; yea, a land which was covered with dry abones; yea, a land which had been peopled and which had been destroyed; and they, having supposed it to be the land of Zarahemla, returned to the land of Nephi, having arrived in the borders of the land not many days before the bcoming of Ammon.
27 And they brought a arecord with them, even a record of the people whose bones they had found; and it was engraven on plates of ore.
28 And now Limhi was again filled with joy on learning from the mouth of Ammon that king Mosiah had a agift from God, whereby he could binterpret such engravings; yea, and Ammon also did rejoice.

And sure enough, Mosiah translates the 24 Jaredite plates with his interpreters:

Mosiah 28

11 Therefore he took the records which were engraven on the plates of abrass, and also the plates of bNephi, and all the things which he had kept and preserved according to the commandments of God, after having translated and caused to be written the records which were on the cplates of gold which had been found by the people of Limhi, which were delivered to him by the hand of Limhi;
12 And this he did because of the great anxiety of his people; for they were desirous beyond measure to know concerning those people awho had been destroyed.
13 And now he translated them by the means of those two astones which were fastened into the two rims of a bow.
14 Now these things were prepared from the beginning, and were handed down from generation to generation, for the purpose of interpreting languages;
15 And they have been kept and preserved by the hand of the Lord, that he should discover to every creature who should possess the land the iniquities and abominations of his people;
16 And whosoever has these things is called aseer, after the manner of old times.
17 Now after Mosiah had finished atranslating these brecords, behold, it gave an account of the people who were cdestroyed, from the time that they were destroyed back to the building of the dgreat tower, at the time the Lord econfounded the language of the people and they were scattered abroad upon the face of all the earth, yea, and even from that time back until the creation of Adam.
18 Now this account did cause the people of Mosiah to mourn exceedingly, yea, they were filled with sorrow; nevertheless it gave them much knowledge, in the which they did rejoice.
19 And this account shall be awritten hereafter; for behold, it is expedient that all people should know the things which are written in this account.
20 And now, as I said unto you, that after king Mosiah had done these things, he took the plates of brass, and all the things which he had kept, and conferred them upon Alma, who was the son of Alma; yea, all the records, and also the interpreters, and conferred them upon him, and commanded him that he should keep and preserve them, and also keep a record of the people, handing them down from one generation to another, even as they had been handed down from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem.

But, hang on a minute, didn't God give the interpreters to the Brother of Jared to keep with the plates?:
Ether 3

21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the time cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall treasure up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.
22 And behold, when ye shall come unto me, ye shall write them and shall seal them up, that no one can interpret them; for ye shall write them in a language that they cannot be read.
23 And behold, these two stones will I give unto thee, and ye shall seal them up also with the things which ye shall write.
24 For behold, the language which ye shall write I have confounded; wherefore I will cause in my own due time that these stones shall magnify to the eyes of men these things which ye shall write.
...
28 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded him that he should seal up the two stones which he had received, and show them not, until the Lord should show them unto the children of men.

So God gave the interpreters to the Brother of Jared and they got sealed up with the plates.

But Mosiah already had the interpreters when the Jaredite plates were discovered, and the interpreters are revealed to have been passed down with the other goodies since Lehi's time.

eh?

[_Inconceivable]

Thanks Danna for the observation.

If the Jaredites had left the funny bow/rock thing with the plates, I'm curious to know what it's instruction manual looked like - probably much like an airline evacuation card that comes with your seat when your flying(the one with drawings and arrows etc about how to put stuff on and get out of a broken airplane - no language required). If that's what the Jaradites left the Limhites, how stupid were the Limhites?

Let me add another layer:

1 Oliver Cowdery describes these events thus: "These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, 'Interpreters,' the history or record called 'The Book of Mormon.'
(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History Note:1)

Perhaps the word interpreter is just another name for a poor uneducated farmboy's hat (with a rock in it).

If so, Smith already had interpreters as well.

So what's the purpose of passing down an ancient rock and a hat with the plates if everyone (including myself) has a rock and a hat??

[_truth dancer]

Oh you guys, stop taking everything so literally.

You know how it goes with translations, there are little mistakes here and there, and no one said these ancient men who recorded their history were perfect.

[_harmony]

I thought everyone was issued their interpreters when they were born. Aren't they called eyes, ears, and a brain?

[_ludwigm]

I thought everyone was issued their interpreters when they were born. Aren't they called eyes, ears, and a brain?

And everybody must learn the usage of that devices.

[_Danna]

I can never get apologists to comment on my conundrums. My Seminary teacher just used to tell me he would look it up and get back. And he never did.

There are so many logical inconsistencies in the Book of Mormon. In this case the interpreters are explicitly located in two different places at once, they are both sealed up with the Jaredite record In order to allow the finder to translate it, while simultaneously they are in the possession of the Nephite seers and being handed down from Lehi to Mosiah.

It is inconsistencies that make me think a) this is badly constructed fiction, and b) maybe there was more than one author.

The discussion in the pinned thread has left me thinking that there is middle ground between the JSjr alone theory, and the S/R theory - I think Dale has commented a fair bit along those lines. JSjr had considerable involvement as seen in the works of Metcalfe and others, but the work was based on a Spaulding text initially redacted by Rigdon.

In this case, did JSjr forget or misunderstand a portion he had had little to do with (Ether), and run off ego-tripping with his insertions concerning seers and stones in Mosiah?

[_harmony]

I can never get apologists to comment on my conundrums. My Seminary teacher just used to tell me he would look it up and get back. And he never did.

There are so many logical inconsistencies in the Book of Mormon. In this case the interpreters are explicitly located in two different places at once, they are both sealed up with the Jaredite record In order to allow the finder to translate it, while simultaneously they are in the possession of the Nephite seers and being handed down from Lehi to Mosiah.

It is inconsistencies that make me think a) this is badly constructed fiction, and b) maybe there was more than one author.

What this shows to me is that they never had a proofreader. Or an editor. Or anyone whose job it was to catch mistakes.

And that people pay more attention to the trash they read than the scriptures they read.

[_krose]

I can never get apologists to comment on my conundrums. My Seminary teacher just used to tell me he would look it up and get back. And he never did.

Have you ever floated this one on the mad board, where they hang out? If not, I think you should. I would really like to see the responses.

[_Danna]

I am pretty sure I would get accused of nit-picking. But how many nits do you need before you call it an infestation. I may have a go later but I don't have the energy, at the moment, to face a multiple attack on irrelevant nonsense while avoiding the main issue. Or have someone come up with a trite answer requiring the Book of Mormon to have a meaning which contradicts a plain reading.

[_harmony]

I am pretty sure I would get accused of nit-picking. But how many nits do you need before you call it an infestation.

According to the health department: one. Then all hell breaks loose in schools, day cares, churches, etc.