Further Proof there is No God

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_antishock8
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _antishock8 »

JAK wrote:Dick Cheney saw and still sees Guantanamo Bay as a good thing while most of the rest of the world sees it as a place where the US government systematically tortured prisoners. While it could hardly be characterized as a “wonder of the universe,” it could be characterized as “evil.” Yet the Bush administration saw it as good, necessary, and in the national interest of the US.

Embryonic stem cell research is seen by many as medical science which could open a “wonder of the universe” in a cure for such dread diseases as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s that afflict many. Others see such research as “evil.”

Understand this is not an objection to your observation, but rather it is an extension to probe perception regarding the divergent views on what is a glimpse into a better future and what is an exercise in “evil.”

JAK


Miss Universe thought Guantanamo was fun and amazing. The inmates there are fat and allowed to laze around to their hearts' content. They are not brutalized at Guantanamo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... _to_battle

I'm sure Dick Cheney does indeed have our country's best interest at rather than releasing these people on our soil and giving them welfare like the current administration wants to do (in addition to Shariah being practiced here). Best to keep them on an island under guard?

And so it with God-belief. Assertions are made with no substance. When shown to be false, the assertions continue. in my opinion, the best thing for God to do is have a nice sit down with Christopher Hitchens, hosted by Fox News and Friends. It would make for good tv.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_JAK
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _JAK »

antishock8 wrote:
JAK wrote:Dick Cheney saw and still sees Guantanamo Bay as a good thing while most of the rest of the world sees it as a place where the US government systematically tortured prisoners. While it could hardly be characterized as a “wonder of the universe,” it could be characterized as “evil.” Yet the Bush administration saw it as good, necessary, and in the national interest of the US.

Embryonic stem cell research is seen by many as medical science which could open a “wonder of the universe” in a cure for such dread diseases as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s that afflict many. Others see such research as “evil.”

Understand this is not an objection to your observation, but rather it is an extension to probe perception regarding the divergent views on what is a glimpse into a better future and what is an exercise in “evil.”

JAK


Miss Universe thought Guantanamo was fun and amazing. The inmates there are fat and allowed to laze around to their hearts' content. They are not brutalized at Guantanamo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... _to_battle

I'm sure Dick Cheney does indeed have our country's best interest at rather than releasing these people on our soil and giving them welfare like the current administration wants to do (in addition to Shariah being practiced here). Best to keep them on an island under guard?

And so it with God-belief. Assertions are made with no substance. When shown to be false, the assertions continue. in my opinion, the best thing for God to do is have a nice sit down with Christopher Hitchens, hosted by Fox News and Friends. It would make for good tv.


What “Miss Universe thought…” regarding Guantanamo Bay is hardly a standard by which Guantanamo Bay can be judged. The detention there, the water-boarding, the sleep-deprivation, and a host of now documented torture techniques stands well supported in evidence.

We have confirmed torture at Guantanamo Bay.

Evidence of Torture

Torture at Guantanamo

The White House

Closure of Guantanamo prison


JAK

_JAK
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _JAK »

antishock8 wrote:
JAK wrote:Dick Cheney saw and still sees Guantanamo Bay as a good thing while most of the rest of the world sees it as a place where the US government systematically tortured prisoners. While it could hardly be characterized as a “wonder of the universe,” it could be characterized as “evil.” Yet the Bush administration saw it as good, necessary, and in the national interest of the US.

Embryonic stem cell research is seen by many as medical science which could open a “wonder of the universe” in a cure for such dread diseases as Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s that afflict many. Others see such research as “evil.”

Understand this is not an objection to your observation, but rather it is an extension to probe perception regarding the divergent views on what is a glimpse into a better future and what is an exercise in “evil.”

JAK


Miss Universe thought Guantanamo was fun and amazing. The inmates there are fat and allowed to laze around to their hearts' content. They are not brutalized at Guantanamo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_re ... _to_battle

I'm sure Dick Cheney does indeed have our country's best interest at rather than releasing these people on our soil and giving them welfare like the current administration wants to do (in addition to Shariah being practiced here). Best to keep them on an island under guard?

And so it with God-belief. Assertions are made with no substance. When shown to be false, the assertions continue. in my opinion, the best thing for God to do is have a nice sit down with Christopher Hitchens, hosted by Fox News and Friends. It would make for good tv.


As for Dick Cheney, he has been wrong on virtually every pronouncement of the Bush/Cheney or the Cheney/Bush administration.

He was wrong on “weapons of mass destruction” which he claimed for Iraq. The US has spent up to $10,000,000,000 a month on a war based upon a lie. There were no “weapons of mass destruction” as Cheney claimed. And Guantanamo Bay was a torture prison camp.

Keeping people in prison and torturing them with no representation for them, no recourse, no opportunity for self-defense for many years does not comply with American ideals. That policy is a policy of a dictatorship not a democracy.

JAK
_Some Schmo
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _Some Schmo »

JAK wrote: Understand this is not an objection to your observation, but rather it is an extension to probe perception regarding the divergent views on what is a glimpse into a better future and what is an exercise in “evil.”

I was just being glib, really, although I think it's interesting that nobody (at least that I've heard) has thought to separate the manufacturer from management when talking about god. It's always just assumed that the guy who made the universe also runs it. I suppose part of that comes from thinking monotheistically, but it still strikes me as narrow thinking.

The only way I'd ever believe in supernatural beings is if we, as a species, were provided with firm evidence that there were supernatural beings. Short of that, I'll probably always be a non-theist.

As for your point about perception, I completely agree. As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think the world is either good or evil, nor is it tending one way or another. It just is. The only thing that changes is our perception, and the outlook on the way the world is says more about the observer than it does the world.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Hi Schmo, you said:

... As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think the world is either good or evil, nor is it tending one way or another. It just is. The only thing that changes is our perception, and the outlook on the way the world is says more about the observer than it does the world.



In this are you viewing the "world" as a Celestial Body? If so, I agree, as you say, "...it just is." OTOH if you are referring to "world" as a populated Globe, I suggest it is as humans have made it, with all of its goods and bads, we are to be credited or discredited for the "world's" state of being. Which of course "is" but is in a state of flux, meaning the state "is" changes with "perceptions"--as you say--moving humanity forward, or impeeding human progress...

From God(s)-believing brutes out of the cave to God-questioners, we look back on a trail of atrocities and injustice that demonstrates, and directs, our behavioral change. Always with resistance. Yet, ever so slowly creeping into quality unimagined by our ancestors. This to the credit of intelligence and science, with little help from traditional, institutionalized religion that held the reins of human leadership since the cave... So here we are, better than ever, improving by every mistake we make... Sorry to intrude :-)
Roger
*
*
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_antishock8
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _antishock8 »

JAK wrote:
Keeping people in prison and torturing them with no representation for them, no recourse, no opportunity for self-defense for many years does not comply with American ideals. That policy is a policy of a dictatorship not a democracy.

JAK


Egh. You completely missed my point...

Prisoners aren't being brutalized at Guantanamo. The assertion was made. There is no proof other than murderous zealots getting really fat while lazing around an island paradise. Were prisoners abused/tortured a few years ago? Sure. But not now. Unless you consider eating cake abusive.

Then I related that assertion to God-assertions.

Assertions are made. There is no proof. In fact, it's quite the opposite in realityland.

That being said, from the articles you provided:

Mr Obama believed Americans will be safer with the prison closed, White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said in his first media briefing.

Mr Obama has repeatedly promised to close the Guantanamo Bay prison, where some 250 inmates accused of having links to terrorism remain and 21 cases are pending.

The legal process for these prisoners has been widely criticised because the US military acts as jailer, judge and jury, the BBC's Jonathan Beale reports from Guantanamo.


Mr. O believes Americans will be safer by closing an island facility that houses murderous Muslims bent on killing Americans and implementing a world-wide Sharia caliphate by...

Bringing them to America, releasing the ones that "promise" to not conduct jihad, and then giving them welfare.

That, my friend, is denial at its worst.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,512627,00.html

And no, I don't think YOU get to define for ME what the "American Ideal" is when we're dealing with people like THAT. Frankly... I'm more than happy to let them die for Allah. We'd be doing everyone a big favor.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Some Schmo
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Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _Some Schmo »

Roger Morrison wrote: In this are you viewing the "world" as a Celestial Body? If so, I agree, as you say, "...it just is." OTOH if you are referring to "world" as a populated Globe, I suggest it is as humans have made it, with all of its goods and bads, we are to be credited or discredited for the "world's" state of being. Which of course "is" but is in a state of flux, meaning the state "is" changes with "perceptions"--as you say--moving humanity forward, or impeeding human progress...

From God(s)-believing brutes out of the cave to God-questioners, we look back on a trail of atrocities and injustice that demonstrates, and directs, our behavioral change. Always with resistance. Yet, ever so slowly creeping into quality unimagined by our ancestors. This to the credit of intelligence and science, with little help from traditional, institutionalized religion that held the reins of human leadership since the cave... So here we are, better than ever, improving by every mistake we make... Sorry to intrude :-)
Roger
*
*

In the other thread I was referring to, people were talking about the "world" and "humanity" interchangeably, and I was actually making a distinction between the two. Looking back, it's likely not that important a distinction, given the nature of the conversation, although I am often struck with how egocentric humans are, that they actually would use those two words interchangeably. It speaks to this destructive idea that "we are the world" rather than just a part of it (and in the grand scheme of things, only a small part).

But anyway, I don't doubt that you could make the case you're making, but again, it's based on what you've chosen to look at. Focus and attention determine our individual realities more than anything else. I can concentrate on what's good in the world today compared with the atrocities of the past and say the world is improving. I can focus on the ills of today compared to the "good old days" and say things are getting worse. Humanity is and always has been a buffet of good and bad stuff; it's what we look at through the sneeze guard and put on our plates that determines what our meal is like, good or bad.

That's all I was getting at.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_JAK
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Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 4:04 pm

Re: Further Proof there is No God

Post by _JAK »

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi Schmo, you said:

... As I mentioned in another thread, I don't think the world is either good or evil, nor is it tending one way or another. It just is. The only thing that changes is our perception, and the outlook on the way the world is says more about the observer than it does the world.



In this are you viewing the "world" as a Celestial Body? If so, I agree, as you say, "...it just is." OTOH if you are referring to "world" as a populated Globe, I suggest it is as humans have made it, with all of its goods and bads, we are to be credited or discredited for the "world's" state of being. Which of course "is" but is in a state of flux, meaning the state "is" changes with "perceptions"--as you say--moving humanity forward, or impeeding human progress...

From God(s)-believing brutes out of the cave to God-questioners, we look back on a trail of atrocities and injustice that demonstrates, and directs, our behavioral change. Always with resistance. Yet, ever so slowly creeping into quality unimagined by our ancestors. This to the credit of intelligence and science, with little help from traditional, institutionalized religion that held the reins of human leadership since the cave... So here we are, better than ever, improving by every mistake we make... Sorry to intrude :-)
Roger
*
*


With Schmo, I agree regarding our “perception” of the world. For those with access to the best in comfort, information, satisfaction, and anything else which contributes to “perception,” the world is often perceived as better or getting better. For people with a disease that is a death sentence (treatment is unavailable, ineffective), they wish they were living in a time when a cure/treatment was available. Surely, for those living at the margin of starvation and who are malnourished, the world gives them only pain and suffering for as long as they last.

We who have access to computers also have access to thousands of things in addition to that computer. Most of us who communicate through this medium are not living at the margin of death. Of course that recognizes that some people with computers have just learned they are fatally ill or are quite elderly and know life is about over. Even so, “perception” is critical, as you have observed.

With Roger, there is challenge to his observation: “I suggest it is as humans have made it, with all of its goods and bads, we are to be credited or discredited for the ‘world's’ state of being.”

The world is substantially what it was when humans evolved. To be sure, we have altered it and will continue to do that. Given the time-frame for humans vs. the time frame for the dinosaur, we humans have been here a very short time. The dinosaur did not bring about its own extinction. It’s a large study.

That said, I agree with this: “From God(s)-believing brutes out of the cave to God-questioners, we look back on a trail of atrocities and injustice that demonstrates, and directs, our behavioral change. Always with resistance. Yet, ever so slowly creeping into quality unimagined by our ancestors. This to the credit of intelligence and science, with little help from traditional, institutionalized religion that held the reins of human leadership since the cave... So here we are, better than ever, improving by every mistake we make... Sorry to intrude :-)”

Well stated, Roger!

Certainly medical science has made us (or can make us) more healthy and extend our lives generally. Other sciences have informed us about the planet and now something about this planet’s place in a universe of billions and billions of suns. We feel better when we feel informed.

JAK

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