Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _ByronMarchant »

Trevor wrote:
ByronMarchant wrote:Here is a little more on Bruno Bauer and the English translation of his 1877 book:

http://www.amazon.com/Christ-Caesars-Ch ... ewpoints=1


Too bad it is out of print and I can't find a used copy. The reviewer talks about Paul and Seneca. I believe that Abraham Malherbe became the leading authority on Stoicism and Paul. I enjoyed his commentary on the epistles to the Thessalonians. The basic idea that Christianity is very much a religion of the Roman Empire seems indisputable to me. As more work continues to be done in this vein, the picture will come into clearer focus.


Elaine Pagels has done some work on the subject (but seems to have abandoned her studies of it), Luigi Cascioli (The Fable of Christ) claims Christ was a name given to a Jewish revolutionary; and here are two websites that deal with the subject:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/socio ... iso02a.htm

http://home.comcast.net/~diehold/TrueAuthorship.pdf

Vern Holley (http://sidneyrigdon.com/vern/vernP0.htm), who wrote about Book of Mormon Geography, began studying this subject before his recent death too.

It might be a good idea to begin a separate thread exclusively on this (Bruno Bauer, etc.) subject.
_Nevo
_Emeritus
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:05 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _Nevo »

Trevor wrote:Too bad it is out of print and I can't find a used copy. The reviewer talks about Paul and Seneca. I believe that Abraham Malherbe became the leading authority on Stoicism and Paul. I enjoyed his commentary on the epistles to the Thessalonians. The basic idea that Christianity is very much a religion of the Roman Empire seems indisputable to me. As more work continues to be done in this vein, the picture will come into clearer focus.

Albert Schweitzer dedicates a chapter to Bruno Bauer in his classic study, The Quest of the Historical Jesus. Schweitzer thought Bauer's earlier work on the Gospel of John (1840) and the Synoptics (1850-52) was brilliant in many respects, but he also clearly conveys its polemical nature:

"In the end Bauer's only feeling towards the theologians was one of contempt. 'The expression of contempt,' he declares, 'is the last weapon which the critic, after refuting the arguments of the theologians, has at his disposal for their discomfiture'. . . . These outbreaks of hatred are to be explained by the feeling of repulsion which German apologetic theology inspired in every genuinely honest and thoughtful man by the methods which it adopted in opposing Strauss. Hence the fiendish joy with which Bauer snatches away the crutches of this pseudo-science, hurls them to a distance, and makes merry over its helplessness. A furious hatred, a fierce desire to strip the theologians absolutely bare, carried him much farther than his critical acumen would have led him in cold blood" (Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus, trans. W. Montgomery, J.R. Coates, Susan Cupitt and John Bowden [Minneaopolis: Fortress Press, 2001], 136).

Schweitzer was critical of Bauer's final work, Christ and the Caesars (1877): "The historical basis for the theory which he offers here is even more unsatisfactory than that suggested in the preliminary work on the letters of Paul. There is no longer any pretence of following a historical method; the whole thing turns into an imaginary picture of the life of Seneca" (140).

Describing the book's reception, Schweitzer writes: "When this latest work of Bauer's appeared he had long been regarded by theologians as an extinct force, indeed he had been forgotten. And he had not even kept his promise. He had not succeeded in showing what that higher form of victory over the world was which he declared superior to Christianity; and in place of the personality of Jesus he had finally set up a hybrid thing, laboriously compounded out of two personalities of so little substance as those of Seneca and Josephus. That was the end of his great undertaking" (141). Schweitzer charges him with having become "blind to history by examining it too microscopically" (142).

"But," he goes on to say, "it was a mistake to bury, along with the Bauer of the second period, also the Bauer of the first period . . . The only critic with whom Bauer can be compared is Reimarus. Each exercised a terrifying and disabling influence upon his time. No one had been so keenly conscious as they of the extreme complexity of the problem offered by the life of Jesus. In the view of this complexity they found themselves compelled to seek a solution outside the confines of verifiable history: Reimarus, by finding the basis of the story of Jesus in a deliberate imposture on the part of the disciples; Bauer, by postulating an original evangelist who invented the history. On this ground it was just that they should lose their case. But in dismissing the solutions which they offered, their contemporaries also dismissed the problems which had necessitated such solutions. . . . However, the time is past for pronouncing judgment upon Lives of Jesus on the ground of the solutions which they offer. For us the great men are not those who solved the problems, but those who discovered them. Bauer's Criticism of the Gospel History is worth a good dozen Lives of Jesus because his work, as we are only now coming to recognize after half a century, is the ablest and most complete collection of the difficulties of the Life of Jesus to be found anywhere" (141-42).

Of course, Schweitzer wrote this in 1906. I daresay Bauer's work on Christian origins is more or less irrelevant now. Historical-critical scholarship on the Gospels has grown exponentially since the turn of the 20th century and theology has taken a back seat. That said, I do think it's too bad that Bauer's writings are not more widely available in English.
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _ByronMarchant »

I have wondered if Schweitzer's study of Bauer played any part in his decision to abandon his theological interests and study medicine and spend the rest of his life in Africa treating natives there by applying his medical skills -- plus enjoying his musical interests.

One advantage Schweitzer had over me is that he knew German.

I don't believe he discounted Bower for a minute. Bower consider The New Testament literary "art," not history; I haven't read where Schweitzer questioned the truth of that claim by Bauer at all.
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _Trevor »

Nevo wrote:Of course, Schweitzer wrote this in 1906. I daresay Bauer's work on Christian origins is more or less irrelevant now. Historical-critical scholarship on the Gospels has grown exponentially since the turn of the 20th century and theology has taken a back seat. That said, I do think it's too bad that Bauer's writings are not more widely available in English.


Well, I suppose one can rely on old scholarship in refuting even older scholarship, or one can read it for one's self and see whether it has any value or not. In other words, you can "daresay" that it is irrelevant, but that is a far cry from knowing by examining it yourself. Another good dictum is that even wildly erroneous scholarship can prove useful if it helps one see things in a new light. That can happen even in the exercise of figuring out why someone else is terribly wrong.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _ByronMarchant »

Trevor wrote:
Nevo wrote:Of course, Schweitzer wrote this in 1906. I daresay Bauer's work on Christian origins is more or less irrelevant now. Historical-critical scholarship on the Gospels has grown exponentially since the turn of the 20th century and theology has taken a back seat. That said, I do think it's too bad that Bauer's writings are not more widely available in English.


Well, I suppose one can rely on old scholarship in refuting even older scholarship, or one can read it for one's self and see whether it has any value or not. In other words, you can "daresay" that it is irrelevant, but that is a far cry from knowing by examining it yourself. Another good dictum is that even wildly erroneous scholarship can prove useful if it helps one see things in a new light. That can happen even in the exercise of figuring out why someone else is terribly wrong.


One good rule of thumb is, I believe, to observe what is ignored by the "specialists" in order to realize what is important (often so called "specialists" are people who have learned how to ignore the real stuff in order to sell their souls for money). If someone argues against this, I will not be surprised. Two examples: in the early 1970s I could find almost no one who wanted to discuss whether Mormon claims of priesthood denial for blacks were false (today we know they were bogus) and ten to twenty years ago, few were interested in anything but Fawn Brodie's (now discredited) Book of Mormon authorship claims. Now, of course, The Mormons must make their own claims and stand on their own two feet (because they can no longer rely on the excuse that "Brodie..."). I'll do my own study of Bruno Bauer before deciding whether or not to discount it or give it any credence.
_Nevo
_Emeritus
Posts: 1500
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:05 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _Nevo »

Trevor wrote:Well, I suppose one can rely on old scholarship in refuting even older scholarship, or one can read it for one's self and see whether it has any value or not. In other words, you can "daresay" that it is irrelevant, but that is a far cry from knowing by examining it yourself. Another good dictum is that even wildly erroneous scholarship can prove useful if it helps one see things in a new light. That can happen even in the exercise of figuring out why someone else is terribly wrong.

I agree, which is why I said I would like to see Bauer's work more widely available in English. Certainly Schweitzer found value in it, even though he rejected Bauer's overall conclusions ("the constructions of Reimarus and Bruno Bauer have no solidity," "Bruno Bauer is the victim of a fantastic imagination").

I mentioned that Bauer's scholarship is largely obsolete, not because I think it doesn't deserve to be read, but because Byron seemed to consider it a promising, possibly definitive, refutation of Christianity (and, not incidentally, Mormonism)—which of course is nonsense.
.
.
.
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _ByronMarchant »

Anyone want to read Schweitzer's chapter 11 on Bauer (1911 English translation), send me an email and I will return it with chapter 11 attached. The above by Nevo is nonsense.
_Trevor
_Emeritus
Posts: 7213
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:28 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _Trevor »

Nevo wrote:I mentioned that Bauer's scholarship is largely obsolete, not because I think it doesn't deserve to be read, but because Byron seemed to consider it a promising, possibly definitive, refutation of Christianity (and, not incidentally, Mormonism)—which of course is nonsense.


Ah. OK. I think I understand you better now. For some reason I am not tuning in to your meaning and intentions very well.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
_ByronMarchant
_Emeritus
Posts: 238
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:25 pm

Re: Correspondence between X and Dr. Daniel C. Peterson

Post by _ByronMarchant »

ByronMarchant wrote:
ByronMarchant wrote:Well, unless the title alone was translated, this looks promising:

Christ and the Caesars: The Origin of Christianity from Romanized Greek Culture
By Bruno Bauer, Frank E. Schacht
Contributor Frank E. Schacht
Published by Charleston House Pub, 1999
ISBN 0966997700, 9780966997705
359 pages


Thanks,

I have ordered it from ILL (InterLibrary Loan) where I live. If they can find it I will let you know.

Byron


Today I was able to pickup my ILL of Christ and The Caesars (in English) from my library. It really does exist. Anyone else who wants to read it, I suggest you order it from your library through their InterLibrary Loan services.

Byron
Post Reply