Why no concubines today?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Why no concubines today?

Post by _harmony »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:4) Whether or not J.S. used the Old Testament, the O.T. system of concubinage clearly has limited (if any at all) applicability in western society.


What? As if polygamy was applicable to western society? If God reinstated polygamy, what difference does it make if it was applicable to western society? He's God!

And if he didn't, and I cannot see how he could or would, then none of it matters. It's all just smoke and mirrors anyway, so Joseph could hide from Emma.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Lucretia MacEvil
_Emeritus
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am

Re: Why no concubines today?

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:3) Men were also slaves.


Did women have male sex slaves?
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
_Benjamin McGuire
_Emeritus
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:42 pm

Re: Why no concubines today?

Post by _Benjamin McGuire »

Not in Hebrew society I don't think. But it did occur. Although, male sex slaves owned by males was probably at least as common ...
_Lucretia MacEvil
_Emeritus
Posts: 1558
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:01 am

Re: Why no concubines today?

Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

Benjamin McGuire wrote:Not in Hebrew society I don't think. But it did occur. Although, male sex slaves owned by males was probably at least as common ...


Probably at least as common? I'm not the expert but feel safe to guess that it's way more common than sex slaves owned by women, anywhere, anytime. But that's beside the point because we are talking about Hebrew society, which I didn't think necessary to remind you again, oh, well. Maybe you take my point; maybe not.
The person who is certain and who claims divine warrant for his certainty belongs now to the infancy of our species. Christopher Hitchens

Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions. Frater
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Why no concubines today?

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Ben... I missed this.

1) Babatha is interesting for a couple of reasons. She doesn't seem to have been a particularly special or important person. She was married more than once, held her own property (even while married), certainly wasn't "owned", and in many other ways seems to have a number of priviledges that run counter to your claims. That and the fact that her lawyer seems to have been a woman ... and although concubinage probably didn't specifically exist outside of polygamous environments, the quote you provided only attempts to address the question of polygamy - it didn't deal much with the other socio-economic evidences.


Babatha lived after Christ. I am talking about the previous three thousand years. Having said this, Babatha was wealthy and most likely the only child of a rich land owner, so her situation is hardly the norm. It is easy to guess her father was powerful enough to make sure his land stayed with his descendants.

2) The patriarchy occurs long before the accounts which describe it. There is certainly in my mind a case to be made that using the Old Testament to describe marriage practices in the patriarchal period is problematic.


Patriarchy developed in four "waves" over a period of a few thousand years, however if Joseph Smith was trying to restore a similar practice to the Old Testament prophets I think it reasonable to look at them.

3) Men were also slaves. This is to say that slavery was an accepted thing, and that it fit into the system of social tiers that the notion of concubinage was probably developed to address (can't have those social climbers can we).


In every case, the ownership of males followed the ownership of women. Male slavery came later, after it became the norm to own women for sexual and procreative purposes. I would like to see some evidence that in Old Testament culture women "owned" men which is different than the wives of wealthy men being served by slaves. I doubt it was common.

4) Whether or not J.S. used the Old Testament, the O.T. system of concubinage clearly has limited (if any at all) applicability in western society.


To be honest I don't think Joseph Smith gave a lot of thought into the details of Old Testament polygamy. I think he needed an excuse for his womanizing, and needed to rationalize his perhaps excessive desire for multiple women, similar to other men we see, even today who claim God commands/demands/authorizes their use of women for their sexual purposes.


I tell you what - since you note this:
And, absolutely there were legal and binding contracts between the male owners of women, again whether they were wives, concubines or slaves, men owned them.
Why don't you provide some of these contracts (at least an example or two) between a man and his wife, or a man and his concubine that indicates this ownership. This ought to at least give us an idea of specifically what milieu you are refering to.


As I am pretty sure you know, there are no written contracts of early Hebrew marriages until (If I recall correctly) about five hundred BC. What we do have are legal documents describing rules and laws that demonstrate how marriage was conducted.

I think it is clear, from virtually every expert of which I am aware, that in the time and place of which we are discussing, the contract was between men and women were the commodity traded.

Ever hear of a bride price? :cool: You know, the price of a wife? :wink: How much does a rapist have to pay the father of his virgin victim in the Deuteronomy? Fifty shekels of silver?

Finally, don't take this as a claim that I think that men and women had equal standing, were treated equally, or anything of the sort. I don't believe this is true. I simply think that your statements go far beyond historical accuracy and instead reflect some of the more truly attrocious periods in the history of western civilization than they do some of our ancient cultures.


I think my statements represent the view of virtually every expert of which I am aware.

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_moksha
_Emeritus
Posts: 22508
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Re: Why no concubines today?

Post by _moksha »

I'm just sitting here at the computer by myself, and I am thinking a concubine would be rather nice right now.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
Post Reply