Is Fast and Testimony Meeting Responsible?

[_Mary]

...are their claims to "know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Church is true" justified? Furthermore, is the Church's encouragement of such testimony bearing irresponsible? Why, or why not?

My opinion is that it is not given in this life (if you're theist) to have a perfect knowledge of anything, so that no-one can know with a 100% certainty on any religious matters. This is where faith, hope and charity come in.

I do believe that the church's encouragement (if they are doing that) is irresponsible, because it gives people the illusion that they 'know' something when really they don't.

To be really honest it would be better to say 'I hope that the church is true' or 'I have strong faith that the church is true', or even I love the church and the people in it.

Further on from that I think it is probably not very good to talk about a 'church' being 'true'.

Which part? Joseph Smith as Prophet? Which doctrine? (since they are subject to change)
The priesthood, the organisation? I think people should be encouraged to be more specific, and to leave out statements like 'the church is true' altogether.

Just out of interest, I always loathed fast and testimony meetings. I didn't like them at all and found them very hard to sit through. It almost always used to be the same people getting up month after month, mixed in with children being guided and primed by parents. Those giving testimony would usually end up spending most of the time talking about all the burdens fo that month... and exclaim through bitter tears that they were happy. I was never convinced.

I don't doubt the sincerity of those involved, I just don't think they are very precise, uplifting or intellectually and spiritually honest occassions.

[_Roger Morrison]

GAZ posted:

...the family of Cain left town after Abel was killed?

Will you please explain this, with refs, please? In the story I was taught, C & A were in the same family as brothers... Not so???
Roger
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[_Roger Morrison]

Miss T, you make a good point, actually several points I easily agree with.
I've been thinking about "the church is true" phrase since reading the OP several days ago.
"Church" is a building; also a body of believers. Both are physical entities that are nothing more nor less than real. The building is an engineering feat. The "body of believers" is a group of people having some, but not all, features in common.

Not hard to see (believe) "that" they exist as one sees a tree or an ox. But to believe "in" a physical anything seems linguisticly impossible to me... F&TMs are probably just another carry-over of old times perpetuated by a hiearchy of old-men who direct the physical affairs of the Corporation. Some affairs pretended to be spiritual, but in reality every movement and/or action is physical! So, F&TM's are not spiritual, they are physical!
Roger
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[Guest]

Interestingly, Gaz doesn't seem to agree with DCP when he says that spiritual experiences are interpreted through psychological and cultural filters. That, or he denies that such filters oblige him to exercise any skepticism at all of his interpretation of his experiences. Would DCP agree that the filters don't warrant skepticism?

Well, I would agree with the idea of a filter in that sometimes people have to be told that they have had a spiritual experience. I recall having discussions in Elders quorum about how to distinguish the impressions of the Spirit from emotional responses. I know that as missionaries we have to explain to people how to recognize the promptings of the Spirit.

Lets look at an example:
D&C 6:15,22-23

15 Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me and I did enlighten thy mind; and now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth;

22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.
23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

Oliver didn't know what he knew. He needed to have it pointed out to him. He had received a witness of the Spirit. Peace had been spoken to his mind, Joy had filled his heart, he had received a witness of the Holy Ghost, but didn't quite know how to recognize or use that witness.

I had a similar struggle with my brother. He was heading out into the mission field and wanted to know that he was doign the right thing. He wanted a witness. Much like Oliver I had to point out to him that he had already received numerous witnesses of the Holy Ghost. He had grown up in the church and had been surrounded by it, and he had also gone to places he should not have been, and felt the gift of the Holy Ghost that he had received rush out of him.

Sometimes people that are new to the working of the Spirit need a guide that has been there to point out to them how to listen to the whisperings of the Spirit. A guide that can show them how to listen, and how to prepare themselves to be recipients. Often times the scriptures are not enough, a testimony of a living prophet is needed.

People are fallible, right? If an investigator has to rely on other people to interpret his personal spiritual experiences, then the spiritual experience cannot be a pure indicator of truth, because a couple levels of fallibility have entered the equation. The investigator could very easily miscommunicate what he felt (especially considering that spiritual experiences are supposedly ineffable**). The interpreters could very easily misinterpret what the investigator told them (not just misinterpreting what the experience means, but what the investigator actually told them the experience was). The interpreters could very easily miscommunicate what the investigator is "supposed" to feel. The investigator could very easily misinterpret what the investigators told him about what he's "supposed" to feel. One layer of interpretation (of the experience by the experiencer) is enough of a problem; adding three more isn't going to help.

**(Telling the missionaries that an investigator had an "ineffable" experience is of no value, either, unless all ineffable experiences are the same. They aren't.)

[_gramps]

JSM wrote:

People are fallible, right? If an investigator has to rely on other people to interpret his personal spiritual experiences, then the spiritual experience cannot be a pure indicator of truth, because a couple levels of fallibility have entered the equation. The investigator could very easily miscommunicate what he felt (especially considering that spiritual experiences are supposedly ineffable**). The interpreters could very easily misinterpret what the investigator told them (not just misinterpreting what the experience means, but what the investigator actually told them the experience was). The interpreters could very easily miscommunicate what the investigator is "supposed" to feel. The investigator could very easily misinterpret what the investigators told him about what he's "supposed" to feel. One layer of interpretation (of the experience by the experiencer) is enough of a problem; adding three more isn't going to help.

I fear your explanation is going to be just a tad bit over Gaz's head. He gets really confused at this point and his fuses burn out. So, good luck trying to explain the subjectivity problems involved in 'spiritual' experience. Someday, he just might 'get' it.......Not.

[_Gazelam]

Gramps,

very funny.

John,

Anyone that has served a mission knows exactly what I am talking about. There comes a point often when you are teachign someone when the Spirit is obviously present. A good missionary or Home Teacher will pause the lesson and point out the Spirit, call attention to the Peace and Joy and Knowledge that is being shared at that time by God himself.

If it is an investigator you ask them to pray later that night and see if that feeling and Spirit return after their prayer. When it does then they have learned the most important lesson any of us can learn, how the Holy Ghost operates and how revelation is received.

There is no trickery, no illusion or misperception. Just a calling to attention of ones faculties as to how God operates.

[_gramps]

Gramps,

very funny.

John,

Anyone that has served a mission knows exactly what I am talking about. There comes a point often when you are teachign someone when the Spirit is obviously present. A good missionary or Home Teacher will pause the lesson and point out the Spirit, call attention to the Peace and Joy and Knowledge that is being shared at that time by God himself.

If it is an investigator you ask them to pray later that night and see if that feeling and Spirit return after their prayer. When it does then they have learned the most important lesson any of us can learn, how the Holy Ghost operates and how revelation is received.

There is no trickery, no illusion or misperception. Just a calling to attention of ones faculties as to how God operates.

Funny?

I was dead serious.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Gaz, if that's your serious response, then you haven't been reading very closely.