President Joseph Smith, Jr. was a Con Man (True or False)

[_Markk]

Hi Beastie:

First, you're talking to beastie, not marg.

Sorry

In regards to your question - I don't know the answer to that.

I don't know if there is an answer, but I more or less agree with most of what you say, One thing I disagree with is:

The reason why I think we're better off sticking to religious examples is due to the powerful emotional impact religious belief has on the human mind, and our human tendency to "think about" religion in a different way than we "think about" financial investments.

I believe this is true but I also believe that Joseph Smith con for the very most part had nothing to do with religion, in a religious sense ( if that makes sense), religion was just the con (prop) that worked. Religion is certainly in the equation but a con man is a con man no matter what the con is, Peter Popoff is the perfect example, if he wasn't selling religion it would the Brooklyn Bridge. So I "think" what I am saying is that to get to what Joseph Smith was all about, all aspects of a con man have to be taken into consideration. Among items, but not limited to, that need to be taken into the mix are:

* Religion
* Greed
* Power
* Sex
* Ego and self esteem

Mark

[_Nightlion]

Hi Dale,

I believe that Joseph Smith was a con man, and a false prophet. I do not believe a person can be a "pretend" prophet and not be a false prophet, that makes no sense to me, but I am all ears.

A few key claims of Smith in no order:

* Saw Heavenly Father and Jesus face to face and spoke with them.
* Talked with Angels.
* Translated a supposed book from Gold plates of a people that has no other history besides his lone witness. ( no other "proof" other than Joseph Smith story)
* Claimed to receive direct revelation from God.

Also:

* He had followers
* Claimed that only those that believed what he taught have a special affective power from God
* made himself King and General
* Didn't have to work, lived off others.


This is a start, so if Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet and who he said he was, then all (most,edit) these things are valid, if he wasn't who he said he was, and the first few claims were bogus, then all these things were done for one reason or another, for reasons we can discuss.

Is this a fair start?

Take care
Mark

Joseph Smith was the most robust of workers. He was a day laborer all his life long.

[_Markk]

Hi NL,

Joseph Smith was the most robust of workers. He was a day laborer all his life long.

Give me a Cf that he was a day labor "All" his life?

Thanks

Mark

[_Uncle Dale]

...
Joseph Smith was the most robust of workers. He was a day laborer all his life long.

What does the Doctrine and Covenants say about Smith being forbidden to
engage in manual labor? Was he in transgression when he weeded his garden?

UD

[_why me]

Dale,

Smith in my opinion, knew full well what he was doing and likely took pride in being able to manipulate and control people. It does take a great deal of skill and intelligence to be a good con artist.

Actually, if as you claim Sidney wrote the book, Smith was not the conman, sidney was. Joseph Smith was just a conduit for sidney's vision. Now of course, Joseph Smith held the mantle piece but sidney was the neck that turned Joseph Smith's head. Sidney certainly got lucky in finding Joseph Smith. But it was sidney who was the coartist if you are correct about who wrote the book.

However, you may be doing what many critics do. Grasp at straws and rotate between theories of just how the book came to be.

[_why me]

Take this from a dumb Mormon kid who was taken advantage of growing up on the streets. It wasn't until I learned the very hard way that this is how a con man thinks, and it is not something they can turn on and off, it is a life style.

Please ponder on this side of what a con man is, and this you won't find in a book, or in history. My best advice to understand this is talk to a prison guard or a police officer, weight it out and certainly test it, but I can assure you it is just the way it is when it comes to these types of "street smart" personalities.
Thanks

Mark

And yet most con men are caught by their own con. In this case we have twelve conmen in on the con. The main conartist and his cronies. Plus, we can perhaps include the wives of the cronies since they would have spilled the beans to their wives.

And then, if as Dale believes that sidney wrote the book, we will need to include him as the main conartist since it was his idea and plan and up the number to thirteen conmen.

Quite unbelieveable uh? And no one spilled the beans.

[_Uncle Dale]

...Smith was not the conman, sidney was.
...

We could just as easily say that Joseph Jr. was not the con man,
because it was his father, Joseph, Sr. who initiated the Smith family
money-digging activities, using a divining rod.

But, if you have some evidence showing that Sidney Rigdon was
there beside Joseph, Jr., in 1825-26, during Smith's activities as
a treasure-seer, please share it! Perhaps you are thinking of
James G. Bennett's 1831 reporting of a Rev. Ringdon being part
of the treasure-seer scam. Probably Bennett got Rigdon confused
with Walters the magician.

But wait -- if Walters started the money-digging, then he was the
con man, and young Joseph was simply led astray for a while!!

UD

[_Calculus Crusader]

Joseph Smith is one of the most transparent charlatans in the history of religious chicanery. His contemporary equivalent is Peter Popoff.

[_Mercury]

If Joe was a con man then so were all the three witnesses, the eight witnesses, his mom, his wife, and sidney (if he had something to do with the Book of Mormon). And can I also include the wives of the witnesses, except Martin's of course. I cannot see the witnesses lying to their wives. I am sure that at least one would spill the popcorn.

Now if Joe did not have these witnesses, your case would be better served.

Those who are conned become in on the con when they start betting the farm on the publishing of the Book of Mormon.

[_Paracelsus]

We could just as easily say that Joseph Jr. was not the con man, because it was his father, Joseph, Sr. who initiated the Smith family money-digging activities, using a divining rod.
...
UD

The apple does not fall far from its tree.