Mormonism: What I've learned so far.

[_zzyzx]

The key to finding honest, upstanding LDS is to look at the guys shirt. If it has button down collars, he is honest. If the girl is married to a guy with button down collars, you are safe and so are your secrets. A further sign of a trustworthy Mormon is that the guy has no earrings and the girl only one per ear. These are the signs of true and trustworthy LDS.

[_Jason Bourne]

Hi, MMA!

I feel for you. I really do.

You are living in Utah. Utah Mormons are a whole different breed of Mormon.

I am 45 years old, and have grown up in the Church; I'm originally from Northern California....and am now living in North Carolina.

We lived in Utah for 7 Godforsaken years. I nearly lost both my testimony and my mind. I could not believe the way people acted. I would come home just shaking my head, saying, "This is not the Church I grew up in."

Everyone took advantage of everyone else. There were no simple "Please's" and "Thank You's". Gossip was second nature. Those who were not Mormon were looked down upon. It was a total nightmare.

When we moved to NC, I actually felt "at home" again, as far as the Church was concerned. The majority of the members here are considerate and very kind.

There are a few who gossip, etc., but they are in the minority here.

Just food for thought.

You know Liz I grew up in Utah.. Granted after my mission I only spent maybe 2-3 years there so most of my time there was as a child, adolescent and young adult. But two of the happiest years of my life is when I was a young married person with one little baby and living in Salem/Spanish Fork area. I was attending BYU but due to my wife's job and mine it was better for us to live in Spanish Fork area. We attended a regular ward there. And I loved it. It was not all that different from the wards I have been in since while living out of Utah. People are people. Some are better at being what I think a Mormon ought to be and some are worse. I also recall the wards of my youth fairly fondly. They were just people doing the best that they can. Were some a bit provincial and narrow minded? Sure. Were some unaware that there is a whole wonderfully divisive world outside of Utah and Mormonism? Sure. Were some idiots about some things? Sure. Were they all like this? Nope. And I think the Church has all of that to some extent wherever one goes.

I just hate caricatures.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
On Dale's point, I remember sitting on a bus travelling into Salt Lake with a lady who was an employee
of T. Monson. She was so bitter and angry...

Of course we all go through our times of bitterness and anger, Saints as well as Gentiles.
My point was not to accuse the LDS of harboring an unusual amount of bitterness and
anger (either towards themselves or towards non-Mormons).

I think THAT part of Mormonism was mostly exhausted in the "Reformation" in Utah in the
1850s, along with the "Mormon War" and the latter part of Brigham's reign.

It is rare today to hear a Mormon speak of "avenging the blood of the Prophet upon the
states of Missouri and Illinois," etc. It is rare to hear of blood atonement, or Danites, or
of terrible wars beginning in South Carolina and sweeping the world -- of the need to
gather to Jackson County, Missouri -- to cast out the wicked Gentiles and take possession
of the "Saints' eternal inheritance in Zion," etc. etc.

That aspect of Mormon bitterness and anger has slowly dissipated over the last century.
Even the self-righteousness self-identification of being "God's Chosen People" has found
vent in softer language from The Brethren. Compare Heber C. Kimball to Spencer with. Kimball,
for a good example of such "softening."

So ---- if that is not what I was speaking about ---- what was I referring to?

I think mostly to hypocrisy, lies, subterfuge, secrecy, the need to exert control in manipulative
ways -- the contrast between the "first principles of the gospel" and Mormonism as it is lived
out, near the center of power and influence -- as a socio-political phenomenon.

But, as an outsider, it is not my place to define this phenomenon nor to complain about it.
I am not Martin Luther, visiting Rome for the first time, overcome with disgust over papal
ostentation and hypocrisy.

I leave THAT to our board's ex-Mormons, who can repeat to us from personal experience,
both the good and bad influences, that a uniquely "Mormon" lifestyle had in their saintly tenure.

UD

[_MCB]

Thanks for giving me the tools with which to resolve my bitterness, UD. Despite the fact that I disagree with you about Spaulding's original content. I have learned to be an independent thinker.

The "avenging the blood of the prophets" thing still exists in some Mormon-dominated areas. I know, because I experienced it. And it appears that there is some going on in the Nauvoo area.

I agree that there has been some mellowing out in the past 100 years, but it does not mean that the problem is gone.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
I agree that there has been some mellowing out in the past 100 years, but it does not mean
that the problem is gone.

I think that the "problem" will be there, so long as Mormons believe that the
Holy Ghost is bestowed upon them at confirmation -- by the laying on of hands
of an elder who already "has the Holy Ghost."

Such an exclusivity forces the Mormon member into a situation of having to
be better that the Gentiles, because he has the abiding presence of the
Holy Ghost -- and they do not. He is one of God's Chosen People -- they are not.

He must strive to be perfect, in order to demonstrate the presence of the
Holy Ghost in his daily life. This practically compels hypocrisy. It is not unique
to Mormons -- we see it in other "perfectionist" religions as well.

From my theological standpoint, the Mormon conversion process also excludes
the miracle of being "born again." Since gifts of the spirit only commence after
reading the Book of Mormon, praying about it, and receiving a Divine confirmation
of its "truth," the modern LDS must look upon Evangelical Christians as deluded
or liars --- they are not really "born again," because they have not received a
witness of the Book of Mormon, and have not the continual presence of the Holy Ghost.

All of which leads to frustration, denial, hypocrisy and self-righteousness, in some
people. The trick in dealing with Mormons, is to avoid that set of members, and
instead associate with less problematic ones.

Lessons learned --- from growing up in a 90% LDS population, in my childhood.

UD

[_Mike Reed]

So to summarize:

• All Mormons are pathological liars.
• All Mormons are domineering.
• Mormons are miserable people.

A very astute ethnographic analysis. I hope you will continue to report on your life among the Latter-day Saints.

(Actually I'm lying.)

It appears that MMA is in good company:

MMA wrote, "I have never been lied to, straight faced, and without any remorse, then since I have lied in Utah."

[_Daheshist]

Dear MMA Fighter,

I would say you've HIT IT ON THE HEAD!!! At least with 90% of active Mormons. They lie, but they do not consider themselves to be liars. They have sex before marriage (or when divorced), but they do not consider themselves to be AT ALL immoral in any way. Hypocrites don't think they are "hypocrites". They think they are "normal" and something is wrong with "YOU" if you think otherwise.

I think it has to do with "culture"; how Mormons are raised. In Baptist churches, people are raised to hear "You are a SINNER and burn in HELL unless you repent and accept Jesus and be born again!" Mormons don't hear that. They hear from birth, "You are GOOD! You are a CHILD OF GOD! You are CHOSEN!" And of course they believe that all throughout adulthood. No matter how BAD they get....they still believe they are GOOD...the CHOSEN. It has to do with how Mormons are raised.

So.... YES!!! Mormon culture is one of deception, mask, false-humility, false pretenses, holier-than-thou, secret sins are ok ("God Can't See Me In The Dark" attitude), I'm better than you, etc. But there is a small minority of Mormons who ARE NOT LIKE THIS.

Mormons (those who are raised in the Church) truly believe they are GOOD, and everything they do is justified and good. They have NO SENSE whatsoever they are sinners, and they don't believe in Hell-fire! So, they have NO FEAR of God or the consequences of their actions.

But, I truly believe in THE TEN PERCENT. From my experience, and in my opinion, about 10% of active Mormons (1 in 10 of the active Church-going Mormons) do strive to be honest and moral people, and sincerely repent when they make mistakes. You have to look hard to find the TEN PERCENT, but they are there...I can assure you.

There are about one million active Mormons in the United States. About 100,000 of them are good, honest, and moral people. IF you can accept The Book of Mormon is literal history, and IF you can accept Thomas S. Monson speaks with God on a first name basis, then the Church is worth it; because of the Ten Percent.

If I could believe in The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, I'd still be a Mormon; because the Church is worth it. But I can't believe in those things; anymore than I can still believe in Santa Claus.

I was so open to learn when first moved here about a month and a half ago. I still have the missionaries over to my house twice a week, and since I've completed all of my lessons that they have, we have studies and small debates now. But above all, this is what I have learned.
First, I've learned that I can't trust a single person that I've met who is Mormon. I can't trust them to be anywhere on time. I can't trust them to keep what I say between us, and I can't trust them to say what they mean.

Second, I have never met so many people in relationships, either dating or married, with other relationships going on in the shadows.

Third, they all lie. They lie so much and about anything. Even when the truth would do them better. From what they think about someone, to what they believe, from what they ate for lunch, to what color the grass is. I have never been lied to, straight faced, and without any remorse, then since I have lied in Utah.

Last is control. They all seem to what to control something. If they aren't in total control of something they don't know what to do with theirselves. People especially. A girl, a guy, younger sibling, elderly parents, anyone. If they can't say to someone "You better f***ing do this." They aren't happy.

Someone will say that there are people like this everywhere within every religion, race, and nationality. My concern is that everyone...every single person that I've met from the LDS church is like this.

Help if you can.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
about 10% of active Mormons (1 in 10 of the active Church-going Mormons) do strive to be honest
and moral people, and sincerely repent when they make mistakes. You have to look hard to find the
TEN PERCENT, but they are there...

I would at least double that percentage -- perhaps even triple it.

I have met LDS who admit that they are sinners, totally undeserving of God's redemption
and acceptance. Such members do not strive to be "honest and moral," so much as they
try, every day, to renew their covenant -- a covenant mediated by Jesus, whose example
they do strive to follow (though without any illusion of reaching perfection thereby).

The words of a departed saintly sister echo in my ear -- "I do not expect the Celestial
Kingdom -- I'll be content as a ministering angel, if God in His wisdom chooses that for me."

And yet, in her own small way, she did act honestly and morally --- not to obtain a reward
"beyond the veil," but because she felt it her proper response to God's saving grace.

She was not "building a stairway to heaven;" she was simply trying to live her life
(and teach her family) in a way that said to Heavenly Father, "Thank you."

How different her attitude than that of one of my youthful Mormon neighbors, who never
missed an opportunity of reminding me that he was progressing towards godhood, while
I was not. Obviously a Reorganized LDS (like myself) could never become a god -- never
organize worlds -- never populate them with spirit children (to one day worship him).

And you know what? -- he was right. I will never organize worlds; and will never visit
Kolob; and will never deliver the "everlasting gospel" to multitudes, as an angel of light.

And that's OK. I feel empathy for my LDS brethren who want to be perfected by their
eternal progression. They'll spend eternity trying to progress and they'll spend eternity
trying to cover up the fact that they can do nothing whatever to work out their own salvation.

Sad, but true.

UD

[_Jason Bourne]

I would say you've HIT IT ON THE HEAD!!! At least with 90% of active Mormons. They lie, but they do not consider themselves to be liars. They have sex before marriage (or when divorced), but they do not consider themselves to be AT ALL immoral in any way. Hypocrites don't think they are "hypocrites". They think they are "normal" and something is wrong with "YOU" if you think otherwise.

You are delusional.

I think it has to do with "culture"; how Mormons are raised. In Baptist churches, people are raised to hear "You are a SINNER and burn in HELL unless you repent and accept Jesus and be born again!" Mormons don't hear that. They hear from birth, "You are GOOD! You are a CHILD OF GOD! You are CHOSEN!" And of course they believe that all throughout adulthood. No matter how BAD they get....they still believe they are GOOD...the CHOSEN. It has to do with how Mormons are raised.

Were you brought up Mormon? I was. I can tell you what you say is nothing like reality. LDS are hammered constantly about how we are not good enough, how we have to become almost perfect to be exalted, how sex sin is next to murder. Ever read SWKs Miracle of Forgiveness. I grew up under SWK. I read his book. I was sure I would never make it to the celestial kingdom because I had masturbated as well as looked at naughty books. I had other rebilious things I did too. When I straightened up and decided to serve a mission I was fraught with guilt and felt I would never be good enough. Even as a young adult I and into my 30s I stuggeled with not feeling like the perfect Mormon, the best father. the best priesthood holder and on and on. It was in my late 30s to my 40s when I understood that I had been fed a constant stream of ideas that just did not jibe with the good news of the gospel of Christ. Maybe it was there and I had not heard it. But it was like a light to me.

What you say about how Mormons are raised is so far off. Sure Mormons think they are chosen modern Israel and the one true church. That makes them special but by hell they better live up to it and if not God would judge them harder than others. T

This is what Mormons often grow up with though that is softening some as time moves on.

So.... YES!!! Mormon culture is one of deception, mask, false-humility, false pretenses, holier-than-thou, secret sins are ok ("God Can't See Me In The Dark" attitude), I'm better than you, etc. But there is a small minority of Mormons who ARE NOT LIKE THIS.

Most active Mormons I know try to live their religion. I know many too.

Mormons (those who are raised in the Church) truly believe they are GOOD, and everything they do is justified and good. They have NO SENSE whatsoever they are sinners, and they don't believe in Hell-fire! So, they have NO FEAR of God or the consequences of their actions.

Pure and utter baloney.

But, I truly believe in THE TEN PERCENT. From my experience, and in my opinion, about 10% of active Mormons (1 in 10 of the active Church-going Mormons) do strive to be honest and moral people, and sincerely repent when they make mistakes. You have to look hard to find the TEN PERCENT, but they are there...I can assure you.

There are about one million active Mormons in the United States. About 100,000 of them are good, honest, and moral people. IF you can accept The Book of Mormon is literal history, and IF you can accept Thomas S. Monson speaks with God on a first name basis, then the Church is worth it; because of the Ten Percent.

Horse crap. Your distorted delusional view has no base in reality.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello Mr. MMA,

Might I suggest using Glenn Beck as a good example of the typical Mormon male? The mental mechanisms he demonstrates on a regular process is fairly normal within the Mormon Corridor. Mormon men and women lie as much as regular people. One of their more irony-laden lies is that Mormon men and women are more honest than regular people because of the gospel. They do a decent job of self-deluding, and then affirming their delusions via their social constructs.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me